Caissa's Web | Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

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Sort by: Post Time #/page: Topic started by SnoopDog176 on 3 Aug 2008, 15:32:17

SnoopDog176

Senior Member

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Posts: 918

7 Nov 2008, 22:45:49

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

strange game, pazu,,,

one minute you are up teh Q for a R and B, then you are losing in material. very entertaining game.

pazuzu

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Posts: 2215

7 Nov 2008, 23:00:32

In reply to SnoopDog176

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

Well, it's still embarrassing but at least this takes the edge off a bit, Deep Shredder would have pushed it's pawns too, although a bit different than I did, plus it would have moved the king out at move 45.

As for the Q-RB that was part of the opening we were playing. We have played I don't remember how many games using different variations of this opening.

pazuzu

yaman

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Posts: 556

8 Nov 2008, 01:37:52

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

isn't deep shredders val that you are busted irregardless?

pazuzu

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Posts: 2215

8 Nov 2008, 02:04:48

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

No, Deep Shredder showing a score of 6.00, give or take, would be normal. Black does/will have a knight and a bishop advantage, worth 3 points each. If it saw a way for black to win the score would be a lot higher, and keep getting higher as the game progressed. Had I played the game correctly it would have shown a 6.00 point advantage for black up until the time of the draw.

yaman

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Posts: 556

10 Nov 2008, 22:15:25

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

okay I take back my thinking that I was neutralising Glad's e5 line in the PP.Got destroyed a few moves after I said that.First 18 moves were all played before with Black doing well according to published games.Glad's 21st was mind boggling and my whole position fell apart shortly thereafter.Paz if you get a chance run this game thru Shredder and see if it finds a way for Black after,particularly, Glad's 21st.Maybe the whole line I played is bad for Black-my pieces were undeveloped and my queen was greedily grabbing material.Well done by Gladiator

pazuzu

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Posts: 2215

11 Nov 2008, 12:27:11

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

DS is working on it. It'll probably be later tonight, when I get home from work, before I'll be able to post what it comes up with.

pazuzu

SnoopDog176

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Posts: 918

11 Nov 2008, 14:08:55

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

Glad and I have played the same variant three times, he won all three.
I'm stubborn. Glad says my 20) Rd8 is no good, although it was played successfully by Anand. From what I can see, most players with black choose to let the exchange go (leave the rook on f8 takeable by the bishhop) and play f5 hitting the knight, instead.

Glad says that the only reason why Anand was successful was because his opponent did not play 24) Bh5, and I can say it is strong, yes, but I do not know if it is a sure winner for white.

Pazu, if you don't mind,,, try spinning this one, too.
I thought I had a chance in this at one point.

BTW, all, my last move QxR+ was simply to allow a message to go through to Gald before resigning.

One last thing, Gladiator, on 31) Bxg4(rook), I thought 31) Rxf5(Q) Rxh4(Q) 32) Rg5! with mate in one was a little quicker

For a loss, it was a fun game LOL!

[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "Caissa's Web"]
[Date "2008.10.12"]
[White "Gladiator"]
[Black "SnoopDog176"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "20/720"]
[WhiteELO "2715"]
[BlackELO "2139"]
[ECO "B97"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Variation "Najdorf, poisoned pawn variation"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2
9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nfd7 13. Ne4 Qxa2 14. Rd1 Qd5 15. Qe3
Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20. Bd6 Rd8 21. Qg3 Qf5 22.
Be5 Qg6 23. Qh4 Nc6 24. Bh5 Qf5 25. Bxg7 Nc5 26. Nxc5 Rxd2 27. Bxh6 Rxg2 28. Ne4
e5 29. Rf1 Rg4 30. Nf6+ Kh8 31. Bxg4 Qxf1+ 32. Kxf1

Edited on 11 Nov 2008 at 14:12:24

yaman

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Posts: 556

11 Nov 2008, 21:56:30

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

thx.Be interesting to see what DS comes up with

yaman

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United States

Posts: 556

11 Nov 2008, 22:02:13

In reply to SnoopDog176

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

diference between our 2 games snoop is I didnt play h6.I deliberately avoided that move because I thought it gave White a potential target at h6.2 White is going to probably redeploy his Black squared Bishop to hit the Queeen at e5 anyway so why give the potential target and 3 published theory is much more prevelent on the line you played vis-a vis the line I played.

These thematics are really interesting to me precisely for games like you and I played against Glad.

pazuzu

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Posts: 2215

12 Nov 2008, 06:33:32

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

DS is still going. It has found 2 losses for black so far. When using the Shootout option, DS will play the game out by itself. Every now and then it'll list an alternative move it was thinking on. Those are what I'm going through now.

pazuzu

pazuzu

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Posts: 2215

12 Nov 2008, 10:33:05

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

This was the best DS could come up with. Notice it was limited to a depth 15 search. It is possible it could find something if you let it dig deeper, but then it'd take days to go through everything.

Also, I started the search at move 21. I'm guessing it could find something better earlier in the game. I just let it look real quick and it looks like black's move 19 might be the key.

pazuzu

[Event "Shootout (DeepShredder11UCI, 15ply) "]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.10.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gladiator"]
[Black "yaman"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B97"]
[Annotator ",Donald"]
[PlyCount "93"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nfd7 12. Ne4 Qxa2 13. Rd1 Qd5 14. Qe3 Qxe5 15. Be2 Bc5 16. O-O O-O 17. Bf4 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5 19. Qg3 Qb6 20. Be3 Qb2 21. c3 Qxe2 22. Bh6 g6 23. Bxf8 Kxf8 24. Qh4 Kg7 25. Ng5 Qxf1+ 26. Kxf1 Nf6 27. Nxf7 Kxf7 28. Rf4 Nbd7 29. Qxh7+ Kf8 30. Qxg6 a5 31. Rxf6+ Nxf6 32. Qxf6+ Ke8 33. Qh8+ Ke7 34. Qh4+ Ke8 35. Qa4+ Bd7 36. Qa3 a4 37. h4 Rc8 38. g3 Rc4 39. Kf2 Bc6 40. h5 Kf7 41. h6 Bd5 42. h7 Kg7 43. Qe7+ Kh8 44. Qf7 Rc8 45. g4 Be4 46. Ke3 Bc2 47. Qxe6 *

yaman

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Posts: 556

12 Nov 2008, 11:04:36

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

thanks Paz.I actually looked at playing 25 Qxf1 but decided that black would be helpless because of those 2 passed kside pawns for white.Maybe Qb6 is wrong.Funny thing is thats the first move I made out of known theory!

pazuzu

Founding Member

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Posts: 2215

12 Nov 2008, 11:32:45

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

I was watching DS at move 25. It switched to Qxf1 at depth 15, up until then it was looking at your move Qe3+.

I got DS doing a full analysis of snoopy's game right now, when it's done I'll do the same with your game and hopefully it'll show a little more.

pazuzu

SnoopDog176

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Posts: 918

12 Nov 2008, 16:53:20

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

yaman said:

diference between our 2 games snoop is I didnt play h6.

I noticed that. I was just going with the flow.

you don't like the idea of BxN and e5 anyway. I think our game where I am black is one of the few I O-O.

SnoopDog176

Senior Member

Occupied Palestinian Territory

Posts: 918

12 Nov 2008, 16:56:51

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

thanks paz

pazuzu

Founding Member

United States

Posts: 2215

12 Nov 2008, 18:21:27

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "Caissa's Web"]
[Date "2008.10.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gladiator"]
[Black "SnoopDog176"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B97"]
[Annotator "Deep Shredder 11 UCI (300s)"]
[PlyCount "63"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

{B97: Sicilian Najdorf: Poisoned Pawn
} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 h6 {
last book move} 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nfd7 13. Ne4 Qxa2 14. Rd1 Qd5 15. Qe3
Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20. Bd6 Rd8 {20... Re8+-} 21. Qg3 $15 Qf5 {Black traps the enemy king in the center} 22. Be5 {
A pinning theme} Qg6 {22... Qxe5 23. Qxe5} 23. Qh4 Nc6 24. Bh5 Qf5 {
White cannot castle king side} 25. Bxg7 {Demolishes the pawn shield} Nc5 {25...
Kxg7 26. Rf1} 26. Nxc5 Rxd2 {26... Kxg7 27. Rf1 Qe5+ 28. Ne4 Qa1+ 29. Rd1 Rxd1+
30. Bxd1} 27. Bxh6 {27. Rf1 Qg5 28. Qxg5 hxg5 29. Rxf7} 27... Rxg2
28. Ne4 e5 {28... Ne7 29. Rf1 Qa5+ 30. Bd2 Ng6} 29. Rf1 Rg4 {29... Nd4 the last chance for counterplay 30. Rxf5 Bxf5} 30. Nf6+ Kh8 {30... Qxf6 does not help much 31. Qxf6 Re4+ 32. Kd2 Rd4+ 33. Kc1 Rd1+ 34. Bxd1 Be6 35. Qg7#} 31. Bxg4 Qxf1+ {31... Qh5 cannot change destiny 32. Qxh5 Bf5 33. Bf8+ Bh7 34. Qxh7#} 32. Kxf1 {32. Kxf1 Bxg4 33. Bf8+ Bh5 34. Qxh5#} 1-0

yaman

Founding Member

United States

Posts: 556

13 Nov 2008, 01:09:24

In reply to pazuzu

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

maybe 19 Nc6 is the better move for black.It at a minimum develops one of blacks undeveloped qside pieces

pazuzu

Founding Member

United States

Posts: 2215

13 Nov 2008, 06:16:12

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

It wasn't much help... I'll let it look long and hard at your 19th move.

pazuzu

[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "Caissa's Web"]
[Date "2008.10.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gladiator"]
[Black "yaman"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B97"]
[Annotator "Deep Shredder 11 UCI (300s)"]
[PlyCount "53"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

{B97: Sicilian Najdorf: Poisoned Pawn
} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 {last book move
} dxe5 11. fxe5 Nfd7 12. Ne4 {12. Be2 Bb4 13. Rb3 Qa5} 12... Qxa2 13. Rd1
Qd5 14. Qe3 Qxe5 15. Be2 Bc5 {Black should quickly conclude development.} 16.
O-O O-O 17. Bf4 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5 19. Qg3 Qb6 20. Be3 Qb2 21. c3 Qxe2 22. Bh6
g6 23. Bxf8 Kxf8 24. Qh4 Kg7 25. Ng5 Qe3+ {25... Qxf1+ 26. Kxf1 Nf6} 26.
Kh1 Nf6 {26... Qxg5 is the last straw 27. Qxg5 f6} 27. Nxf7 {
Demolition of pawn structure. . . . . . .} {27. Nxf7 Qxd4 28. cxd4} 1-0

pazuzu

Founding Member

United States

Posts: 2215

13 Nov 2008, 10:49:11

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

Ok, we are getting somewhere now. It may not be perfect, but it is a draw. I say it may not be perfect because I had DS play another shootout after looking at black's 19th move. It had f6 tied with Qb6 at depth 20. I changed black's move to f6 and played the shootout at depth 15. At move 58 black started losing and DS resigned a few moves later. I then took it back to move 57 and had it play the remainder of the game at depth 20. There it found the draw. The only question that remains is could DS find something for white during moves 20-57 that would have let white keep it's advantage had I let DS play those moves at depth 20? I'll let you decide...

pazuzu

[Event "Shootout (DeepShredder11UCI, 15-20ply) "]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.10.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gladiator"]
[Black "yaman"]
[Result ""]
[ECO "B97"]
[PlyCount "138"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2
Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nfd7 12. Ne4 Qxa2 13. Rd1 Qd5 14. Qe3 Qxe5
15. Be2 Bc5 16. O-O O-O 17. Bf4 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5 19. Qg3 f6 20. Bc7 Qa2 21.
Bc4 Qxc2 22. Bxb8 Qb2 23. Bxe6+ Kh8 24. Rfd1 Ne5 25. Bxe5 fxe5 26. Qxe5 Bxe6
27. Qxe6 Rae8 28. Qc4 h6 29. Qd3 Rc8 30. h3 b5 31. Rd7 Rc1 32. Rxc1 Qxc1+ 33.
Kh2 Qf4+ 34. Ng3 b4 35. Qd5 a5 36. Qxa5 b3 37. Qc3 Rf7 38. Qd2 Qxd2 39. Rxd2
Kh7 40. Rb2 Rf6 41. Rxb3 g5 42. Ne4 Re6 43. Nc5 Rd6 44. g4 Kg6 45. Kg3 Rf6 46.
h4 gxh4+ 47. Kxh4 Rf1 48. Rb6+ Kg7 49. Ne4 Rh1+ 50. Kg3 Re1 51. Nd6 Kg6 52.
Nf5+ Kg5 53. Nxh6 Re3+ 54. Kg2 Rg3+ 55. Kh2 Ra3 56. Re6 Ra2+ 57. Kg3 Ra3+ 58.
Kg2 Ra2+ 59. Kf3 Ra3+ 60. Ke4 Ra4+ 61. Kd5 Ra3 62. Nf5 Kxg4 63. Ke4 Ra4+ 64.
Nd4 Kg3 65. Rb6 Ra2 66. Rb7 Ra4 67. Rb6 Kf2 68. Ke5 Ke3 69. Rb3+ Kf2 *

SnoopDog176

Senior Member

Occupied Palestinian Territory

Posts: 918

13 Nov 2008, 12:46:00

In reply to yaman

Re: Official Poisoned Pawn variation, SD, MOT Kabitzing Thread

possibly, yaman, but black is looking at getting stuck with either Nd6+ or Bd6 on white's next, so O-O made a lot of sense.

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