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Topic started by whiteLightning on 8 Jul 2010, 19:50:26
whiteLightning
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8 Jul 2010, 19:50:26
 
Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
{from, reasons.org}
 
How Can Yahweh Be Perfectly Good and Just and Yet Command Extermination?
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7/1/2008
by Kenneth Samples
 
Richard Dawkins, the world’s most famous atheist, asserts that the God of the Old Testament is “a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser.”1
 
Yahweh, the Hebrew name of the personal God of Israel in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, reveals himself to be the Creator of heaven and earth. As the one true Lord, he is an infinite, eternal, and morally perfect personal deity. Historic Christianity identifies Yahweh as none other than the Triune God who is more specifically unveiled in the New Testament as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Tension arises when examining the Scriptures. The Bible reveals God to be perfectly good (Psalm 145:8-9) and perfectly just (Deuteronomy 32:4) in the very nature of his being. However, the Old Testament states that God personally commanded the army of the Hebrews to destroy the Canaanite nations.
 
During the conquest of Canaan, God commanded the following to the Hebrews:
“When the LORD [Yahweh] your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy” (Deuteronomy 7:2).
“However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes” (Deuteronomy 20:16).
 
In response to this frightening divine command, the Hebrew army carried out the following:
 
“They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys” (Joshua 6:21).
 
How can this seemingly brutal genocidal command be reconciled with God’s perfect goodness and justice?
 
Moral Justification for God’s Command
The following seven points help provide the moral context and justification for Yahweh’s command to destroy the Canaanites:
 
1. While God doesn’t always reveal all the details concerning his sovereign decisions, Scripture indicates that God’s moral will flows from his perfectly good and just nature. Therefore God has morally sufficient grounds for his commands even if those reasons are not fully revealed to humankind. However, in this specific case some of those reasons are evident.
2. God’s command to destroy the Canaanites was motivated by his intention to preserve Israel from the deep moral corruption that would have inevitably resulted through cultural assimilation with the pagan nations. God’s wrathful justice upon the Canaanites resulted in an act of mercy (protection) upon the Israelites. Therefore God’s command to destroy an entire people group nevertheless constituted a moral good.
3. The Canaanites were a morally decadent and reprobate people. Archaeological discoveries have revealed that they practiced such moral abominations as temple prostitution, child sacrifice, and bestiality.2 And for hundreds of years they consistently ignored God’s call to repent of their wicked ways (Genesis 15:16). In God’s eyes they were beyond moral rehabilitation.
4. Life in the ancient Near-Eastern world was extremely brutal. And the Canaanite nations viewed the Israelites as their enemies. In this context of warfare among nations God’s command to destroy the pagan peoples was a necessary act of war.
5. God, as the sovereign creator and sustainer of life, has the prerogative to take life at his just discretion (Deuteronomy 32:39; Job 1:21). Because the cosmos belongs to the Lord, he has the ontological right to do as he wishes with his creatures. His only constraint is his moral nature. God is therefore in a different moral category of being than his creatures. He is the ultimate judge of all things. As Christian philosopher Paul Copan notes: “Like Narnia’s Aslan, Yahweh, though gracious and compassionate … is not to be trifled with.”3
6. God’s order to exterminate the Canaanites was not a command to murder (to take human life without just cause). Rather, it constituted a command of capital punishment on a grand scale and therefore reflected a retributive form of justice (the punishment matched the crime).
7. The divine command for the Hebrew army to destroy the Canaanites took place in a unique historical and biblical context. This was not a common or normative event in the life of God’s people. Yahweh is compassionate and patient and remains, in spite of this act, a God of mercy (Exodus 34:6).
 
 
Why Such Utter Devastation?
 
Yet while God had just cause to destroy the Canaanites for their wicked ways, was it necessary to kill all life? Couldn’t the innocent children have been preserved?
 
Unfortunately, the abominable evil of the Canaanite society had polluted the children as well.4 God, who knows the thoughts and intentions of people (Hebrews 4:12), knew that if these children had been allowed to live they would have inevitably infected God’s people with terrible iniquity. The Hebrews had to be “preserved” because they were the very people from which the Messiah would emerge. Additionally, it may be that God took mercy upon these children and granted them divine acceptance in the next life. God’s compassion is deep and wide even in the midst of temporal judgment.
 
An important lesson to be learned from this great and terrible event is that God loves his people and he will take extreme measures to protect them from moral and spiritual ruin (Romans 8:28).
 

 
References:
 

 
1. Richard Dawkins,
 
The God Delusion
 
(New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2006), 31.
 

 
2. Gleason L. Archer Jr.,
 
A Survey of Old Testament Introduction
 
(Chicago: Moody, 1964), 261.
 

 
3. Paul Copan, “Is Yahweh a Moral Monster?”
 
Philosophia Christi
 
10, no. 1 {Summer 2008}, 31
 

 
4. Ronald A. Iwasko, “God of War,” in
 
Christianity for the Tough-Minded
 
, ed. John Warwick Montgomery (Minneapolis: Bethany, 1973), 99-107
Zilon
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9 Jul 2010, 07:41:17
In reply to whiteLightning
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
whiteLightning said:
During the conquest of Canaan, God commanded the following to the Hebrews:
When the LORD [Yahweh] your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy  (Deuteronomy 7:2).
However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes  (Deuteronomy 20:16).
 
In response to this frightening divine command, the Hebrew army carried out the following:
 
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys  (Joshua 6:21).
 
People have done, and still do, all kind of stupid and brutal things in the name of God.
 
whiteLightning
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9 Jul 2010, 08:10:14
In reply to Zilon
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
Zilon said:
People have done, and still do, all kind of stupid and brutal things in the name of God.
 
In putting the 'Big Tent' theory, into practice; I've just made a mental note, to inscribe an asterick, {as in: some dispute the Divine authority of that command}; Concerning, ancient Israel and the Caananite slaughter; And while I'm at it; I'll denote another {mental} asterick, besides Pres. Harry S. Truman's decision {with his nation's then overall approval}; Re. his decision to atom-bomb obliterate; "Hiroshima" and "Nagasaki." -- As in: A signifigant minority of people, considered this, as a crazed and brutal act; That Not surprisingly; Wasn't all that different from their moral assessment of President 'Truman'! ----
pennine
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9 Jul 2010, 08:34:28
 
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
Not so much...meeting a biblical question head on, more a case of some cunning side steps. Reminded me of a performance from the Irish Riverdance, quickstep religious company; That's the show where the legs are furiously moving but the brain remains stubbornly inactive.
Yes that posting from White shighting, was not a case to prove that god is kind, it was a remonstration of why Christians can kill in the name of religion.
And here is a small sample from the bible, where christians are required to murder...
Witches must be killed
Adulterous women [ plus her innocent husband]
Children who curse their parents
Death to nonbelievers
Death to an entire town, if just one person is a non believer
Death for blasphemy
death to homosexuals
kill those who work on the sabbath
and the list go on , and on.
Dawkins is right...the god of the old testament is an evil bastard.
Zilon
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9 Jul 2010, 08:45:16
In reply to whiteLightning
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
Well, I did not comment on president Truman and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but on the Caananite slaugther, so don't try to pin an opinion on me that I haven't expressed!
 
For the Hiroshima and Nagasaki the bombs were dropped primarily to end the war. Which they did. Which was a good thing. Some argue that more ppl would have been killed if the war had been allowed to go on, of course no one will ever no the answer for sure. Would the war have ended soon enough anyway? I belive most ppl think it would have carried on for years if the bombs hadn't been dropped, but again, nobody knows that for sure either.
 
Zilon
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9 Jul 2010, 09:11:22
In reply to pennine
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
pennine said:
Reminded me of a performance from the Irish Riverdance, quickstep religious company; That's the show where the legs are furiously moving but the brain remains stubbornly inactive.
 lol... Very descriptive!
 
pennine said:
Dawkins is right...the god of the old testament is an evil bastard.
 I've also read parts of the old testament, and on more then one occasion it is quite unciviliced and not so compasionate. But its very interesting to read, for historical reasons and for the fact that it is so important to so many ppl.
whiteLightning
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9 Jul 2010, 18:58:54
In reply to Zilon
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
FYI; In "Riverdance"; The functions in a dancers brain {to prevent ones natural inclination, to also move their legs}, is 'working' about as 'actively' {I would think}, as your most active leg gyrator, dancer. As in: Don't 'over-ride' mental/neural commands, count for something?! {not sure about 'moonwalkers'!?, lol}.
 
On a more Biblical note; Probably the starkest example of your average 'decent'/civilized human, misjudging the God-of-the-Bible's intentions & character; Concerns the Scripture mentioned, Divinely mandated, slaughter of the heathen and reprobate.
 
Aside from the heard in other 'arenas' {as it were}; Of the controversial means, 'serving a greater {alleged} end'; I believe, that these 'difficult'/'hard-to-swallow,' 'O.T' Bible passages, should be seen in the context, of these two Scripture verses.
 
Isaiah 55:8 {New American Standard Bible, ©1995}
"For My thoughts are Not your thoughts; Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. --And
 
Matthew 10:28 {same 'translation'} ..Fear not; Those who can destroy the body, but not the soul; But fear Him {Jehovah}, who can destroy Both the body and soul, in Hell.
 
Reading 'between-the-lines'; It would appear, that God gives Himself 'permission' {as it were}, to destroy/kill people; If {implied}, it's in conjunction, with His 'Holy nature'..{mentioned numerous times in the Bible}; And serves a 'grander' Divine plan. Which us mortals, tend to be oblivious to, for obvious reasons!
 
Final, rhetorical thoughts- Was it 'uncivilized' of the God-of-the-Bible, to order "Abraham" to kill his son "Isaac" on an altar, as a means of determining "Abraham"s unquestioning obedience; Prior to canceling, that specific command?!
 
And finally; Might it Not be understandable; That the actions of an Infinite being; Cannot always {much less let's say, 85% of the time}; make sense, to the rest of us 'finite' creatures?! {fini}
yaman
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9 Jul 2010, 21:50:12
 
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
Funny topic.The God of the old testament jews is a really miserable bastard.I suspect it is more a reflection of those people's temperment than an actual reflection of a supreme being (if one truely exists)
whiteLightning
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9 Jul 2010, 22:53:56
In reply to yaman
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
yaman said:
Funny topic.The God of the old testament jews is a really miserable bastard.I suspect it is more a reflection of those people's temperment than an actual reflection of a supreme being (if one truely exists)
 
With 'due respect,' yaman; I'm not sure, {nor do I much care}; What your specific 'problem' is!? But Galatians 6:7 {New Testament} starts out: "Be not deceived; For God is Not {to be} mocked. For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" ....
 
And for greater in-depth examinations of how those who mock God, not only greivously err, {even if in complete ignorance}; But risk reaping 'bad tidings' {as it were}, upon themselves; 'Googling': God is not mocked; Is one lead!
 
Ps.- I would imagine, that having 'Arab-Muslim,' or Arab-American, Muslim 'roots'..{whether or not that describes yourself}; Would comprise a Particular added challenge.. in comprehending the {Hebrew oriented}, 'God-of-the-Bible.' Whose 2nd documented phase, of having revealed Himself, {1st, was to "Adam & Eve"}; Was through: "Abraham," "Isaac" and "Jacob."
pennine
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10 Jul 2010, 01:55:53
In reply to whiteLightning
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
whiteLightning said:
those who mock God, greivously err,
 The opposite is true.
But first the grievous spelling error.
Mocking God comes easily. He is an imperfect character from an imperfect novel written by an imperfect ancient tribe.
yaman
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10 Jul 2010, 03:13:38
In reply to whiteLightning
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
I'm not mocking God at all.I am simply stating the fact that fucked up people created a fake idol to justify their homicidal instincts.God has not a damn thing to do with it.
yaman
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10 Jul 2010, 03:24:35
In reply to yaman
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
And I am not Arab or Muslim.I find it despicable that for thousands of years murderous thugs have justified their slaughter in the name of Yahweh,Allah,Jesus,God etc.
 
Barbarism and murder are what they are.Hiding behind a banner of sanctifity makes the killers so much the more the evil.I have got zero tolerance for murderous thugs who claim God is on their side.If God exists he we will cast them all to the hell they so richly deserve.Spare me your stupid bullshit
whiteLightning
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10 Jul 2010, 05:55:00
In reply to yaman
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
yaman, earlier had said:
Funny topic.The God of the old testament jews is a really miserable bastard.I suspect it is more a reflection of those people's temperment than an actual reflection of a supreme being (if one truely exists)
And further stating..{in, clarification}:
yaman said:
I'm not mocking God at all.I am simply stating the fact that fucked up people created a fake idol to justify their homicidal instincts.God has not a damn thing to do with it.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yaman; When it comes to your supposed logic, and who's Really spouting 'BS'; I Must say; You are your own, worst enemy! .. Such is Life.
yaman
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10 Jul 2010, 12:56:37
In reply to whiteLightning
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
Look it is you that is trying to justifying the murder of woman and children not me.If somehow the sheer evil of your advocacy isn't readily apparent to you I feel sorry for you but I also deeply fear you.
whiteLightning
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10 Jul 2010, 15:26:13
In reply to yaman
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'
yaman said:
Look it is you that is trying to justifying the murder of woman and children not me.
 
When the 'Giver-of-Life' decides {or permits}, to 'take' a life, {or lives; Including, through human 'intermediaries'; The 'IDF' comes to mind; Or even the bloodshed, in numerous warring 'hotspots' around the world}; It is usually, to quite often, most certainly Not, a case{s} of 'murder'! {I wouldn't be 'leveling-with-you' though; If I didn't concede, that depending on individual circumstances; There Are cases, where the nominal 'good guys'..{who oddly or not; Are often, different 'sides' to different people}, Do periodically engage in 'controversial killings'; Which some, may see, as 'murder'}.
 
Many humans, {such as yourself}, have a convoluted value-system. Don't you realize that 'God' {for short}, can just as easily take a life, or many lives; By various 'acts-of-Nature,' as through human intermediaries?!; Yet, few people, would be so foolhardy, as to call that 'murder'!
 
And further; Regardless, of where you stand on 'abortion' "yaman"; You have many similar thinking folk, {as in, an 'Amen corner'}, on your 'side' {as it were}; Who do Not view abortion as murder, {I believe it is}; Because they conveniently, refuse to acknowledge, the pre-born 'fetus,' as a human being!?
 
Ps.- There's No need to 'fear' me, or my views. Aside from Not 'packing heat' {or a knife}, wherever I go; If I were to meet you, and other like-minded, 'bad' name-calling folk, in person; I don't even have a sufficient amount of ill-will towards you, etc.; That it wouldn't even occur to me, to associate with yourself {for example}; As adhering, to an incredibly 'f....d-up' belief-system. To borrow one of your own 'four letter' based words; That you apparently reserve for some people, you disagree with!?
- And Yes; Like you.. I agree; That there Are 'Kooks' who kill, in the name of God; When nothing, could be further from the Truth!
RAPTOR
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11 Jul 2010, 16:15:13
 
Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'

GOBLIN
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11 Jul 2010, 17:10:09
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Re: Meeting a Difficult Biblical Question, 'Head On'