If somebody can make this clear to me I would appreciate it.
 
We know of our current national debt dilemma, it is about $10.5 Trillion in what is refered to as "public" debt, where the teasury raises funds by selling bonds and issuing other instruments of debt.
 
Also, since the feds borrowed a whopping $550 Billion on November 4 this year, (two days ago),
LINK: Associated Press, Borrowing $550 Billion, Nov. 4
let's cut to the chase and just call it a nice round $11 Trillion in public debt. Fine.
 
Now, "private" debt is another matter. The US government also has obligations to Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security , bringing the entire debt up to some $59 Trillion. YES, no misprint.
 
this is a wikipedia link, but I have seen this $59 Trillion figure in other publications.
LINK: Wikipedia, US public/ private Debt
 
"Adding unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, and similar obligations, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion, or $516,348 per household"
 
I have a problem understanding this concept of "obligations" to those agencies and what money transfers occured, and who owes what to who. If somebody could help explain to me what this private debt all entails, I would appreciate it. I am not really articulate in the ways of high public finance.
 
Now,,, stop and think for a long time here,,,, a family of four (average household) is now in debt to the tune of over $1/2 Million, AND WE HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT BUT the debt. Our retirement fund has been all but wiped out and will one day crash. We have NO universal healthcare,, just what DO we have for what they have spent?
 
and finally, this:
IF THESE POLITICANS CAN SO FRAUDLENTLY RUN SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICADE, MEDICARE, HOW DARE YOU EVEN THINK TO LET THEM RUN UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE?
 
They're killing this nation!
 
 
 

The answer, {and surprisingly concise!} is 'blowin'-in-the-wind'; I mean,
is to be found @:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Aj8JexgTSB00LnANolh8E7cjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20071105230612AAOq24n

Also, as I understand it; Whenever 'Congress,' at the President's behest, finds a need to INCREASE the 'national debt,' {which seems to be happening with increasing frequency; lest, the US Gov't default on its Many "obligations," {only Some of which make sense!}; after Congress votes the authorization increase, {invaribly in hundreds-of-billions,- dollars}, the 'Prez' then signs it; whereupon the US Treasury requests, and-or notifies, the 'US' "Federal Reserve Bank" 'HQ,' {a semi-private, banking concern}; which then allows the US Treasury, to literally 'print up' more money, {even if it's partly or exclusively in the form of a huge number, of now 'borrowed,' from the Federal Reserve Bank}, Federal assets; noted on some, obviously important, computer discs!
 
.. The ridiculousness of this wholly unnecessary 'third-party' involvement, {ie. the "semi-private" 'Federal Reserve'}; is that the U.S. Gov't, {including, Congress}, Does Not, nor Has Not, {since around the circa, late 1930s}, the ability to increase the Nat'l debt, without the acquiessence, of the 'Federal Reserve'; to whom the U.S. Gov't, {read, taxpayers}, Now owe, that much more 'intere$t,' on the loan for!?
 
Ps. Even Wikipedia, mentions, that the Federal Reserve, {often known as, "the Fed," for short}; Has 12 separate divisions, {in different cities around the U.S.}; Each 'division' 'HQ' {headquarters}, has their own "9 man {or women}, 'board-of-directors.'
.. That's a Lot of well-paid, superfluous employee 'overhead,' {salaries}, who would.. I'm sure; All deny, that their 'work' is anything but vital, to this country's financial governance; Y-e-h, R-i-g-h-t!

Nahh, that's not it MU.
 
they are saying private debt is like a mortgage or credit card where you are responsible.
 
but it also applies to a country, in this case, the US of A.
 
Public debt is the debt we know of, the selling of bonds, taking loans, where the monies borrowed in whatever fashion go to the general treasurey fund.
 
Private debt in the government sense is something else.
it has to do with borrowing against other agencies that also come under the whole aegis of the US government, eg, the US government general treasurey "borrowing' from the social security coffers.
 

the first words out of your mouth, ZENknight,,,,
 
 
you right this as if it were a continuation of what memoryunchained was writing.
hmmmmmm,,,, very interesting!

 
OK. This is what I can't comprehend. I seem to understand this as there is no actual money. It's all paper transfers. Money, as we use it, doesn't exist when it comes to government. It is all monopoly money to them. The government check we receive are backed only by a promise that it might be good when it hits the bank. Should those start to bounce I guarantee the banks won't "forgive" their $35.00 overdraft fee when MY checks start to bounce.
 
However: we must give them real money to keep the thing afloat.
 
This entire money concept and what happens to stuff that goes INTO a black hole is just not understandable.
 
 
Hmmmmmmm maybe the government IS a black hole and we, the people, are on the edge of the event horizen.

If the US private debt is actually over 50 trillion, then America is more socialist than I thought. That is a lot of money. M8IN3 can't blame Obama for any of that 50 trillion. Are you sure that GW is a capitalist and not really a socialist. By the way, I believe in socialism; taking the best bits of communism and the best bits of capitalism to give the best standard of living to as many citizens as possible. However Snoop, the private debt is not a hard concept; it is simply the amount of money which the government pays out in benefits/ pensions etc. However , due to a shrinking pool of young tax paying workers, in relation to a growing pool of retirees, these payments are sky rocketing and are unsustainable. That is unless the republicans put up taxes or the democrats cut benefits. One side will have to capitulate on this issue. The only other solution, which is popular in Europe, is massive immigration to boost the workforce. Or the US could slash it's military spending . I'd go for that option.

 If the 50 0r so trillion is paid out , it means that the average family of four will get $ 1/2 Million [less their share of 10 trillion, national debt]. The children of their children will pay for it through their taxes.
A great deal of that 50 trillion will most likely be "unfunded liabilities" meaning that the govt will have to borrow money to keep the schemes going.

 
this is the part that escapes me,,, is that $50 Trillion of private debt a mirage? what happens if there is default??
 
in public debt, if there is a default, the government can lose assets to debt holders and/or the debtholders get screwed. I don't know about this intra-government loan business at all.
 
maybe raptor is right,, it is all a big black hole that only the high ones in washington know anything about.
 
I know one thing, nobody in washington seems to be at all concerned, especially and including the CHANGE president, Barack Obama. (or the one going out, Hitler Bush). You can bet u'r arse that when Barack raises taxes it is NOT to help america become more solvent by paring down debt, it will NOT slow down borrowing (that has increased already), it is to raise spending limits even HIGHER.
 
everybody in the world has to live within a budget. It always catches up to people with their 9 credit cards, who try to live beyond their means, which is what america is doing right now. two things here:
 
1) The united states government is the richest entity in the world, going by "earning power", (revenue streams). WHY, oh WHY cannot they live within THOSE limits? why are they always saying they just don't have enough? especially when you consider the frivolous things they INVENT to spend it on (bridge to nowhere, eramarks in general)
 
2) When is a politician going to come along and admit that the drunken sailors in washington have a huge problem and it is imperiling this once great nation?
 
even government bureaus within the treasury department ADMIT that the current way of doing business is unsustainable, and we all know that the social security system is going to fail.
 
what is wrong with our politicians? what is wrong with the people of america? WAKE UP! by the time they are done raping social security and it is forced to be privatized, most of your retirement will be ka-PUT. and the thieves will never be prosecuted, nor will there be nearly enough welfare money to help you out. Why put this impossible burden on our kids/grandchildren???
 
and once again,,,,
 
how in anyone's right mind, with the government's mishandling of social security, medicare, medicaid, could ANYONE be in favor of government running Universal Healthcare?/
 
I mean,,,, this REALLY blows my mind.
 
unbelieveable.
 
 

 
My reply: In answering the part of your question, that I Do Know; To a certain unspecified extent; Perhaps about 10-to-20 percent of our $59 trillion debt, Is a 'mirage'; Especially, if the Federal Reserve/U.S. Treasury, keeps authorizing & 'printing' money, {whether it's literal, or virtual, extra $$$}, like there's 'no tomorrow'!
 
This is officially called "monetizing" {reducing} our national debt; By having Many More printed-up dollars, chasing the finite amount of 'goods and services,' that Always results in greater inflation!
 
'Goods'; As in, manufactured items.. that we buy; And 'services,' ranging from anything like a hired plumber, to a hired landscaper, etc., etc.
 
That China, and any number of oil-producing countries; Or countries that otherwise are holding {read, 'stuck with'!}, a plethora of, {ever declining, in purchasing power} U.S. dollars.. at this point-in-time; Are also distressed & angered by the U.S. Gov't 'monetizing' {reducing} our debt, at their expense, {plus, the average American citizen}, is almost a "No Brainer."!

if what you say is true,, a blanket statement that the debt can be pared down by "monetizing" it,, then anybody that buys US bonds are loans the government money in any way is a total fool.
 
clearly, you are right, in that printing money would diminish the worth of the dollar - including the dollars that rare OWED.
 
but I seriously doubt that explains all of this debt.

 
'Googled,' under: national debt. Considering that this is one of several hundred links, {found, on the 1st page near the top}; Only God and "DualSpace," would know offhand, as to which link provides the Very Best explanation!!
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html

nice link but it does nothing to address private debt,

I have since thought of another way to pose the problem I am having understanding this situation here.
 
In the case of "obligations" that the general treasury has to social security, that is easily understood. Cash existed that was NOT placed there by the general treasury, it was placed there by the citizens that pay into it. so there was "cash" to borrow on, cash that did not "belong' to the general treasury. The "obligation" there is to pay back that cash.
 
What about medicare and medicade?
did they "borrow" cash from those departments, and if so, where did it come from?
 
If cash existed there, it had to come from the government (general treasury) since there is no direct funding from the taxpayer.
 
so then what are these "obligations" that the government has to these two departments that so obviolsy adds up to many trillions of dollars?? ($48 Trillion)
 
still not getting it
 

 
Did you include cities and towns debt in your calculation? New York city almost went bankrupt in the 70's.

Also, future payments to pensioners from the public sector...
 
"A debt measure that is often used in international comparisons is the 'general government debt in relation to GDP'. This includes the whole of the public sector: central government, municipalities, county councils and the pension system. The calculation rules are the same within the EU and are based on the terms of the Maastricht Treaty."
 

 

Hi windmill,
 
city and town budgets/debt is a whole separate thing.
 
that is not included at all in the federal or state budgets/debt.
 
for whatever the reason, states don't seem to go into heavy debt like the feds do, and teh cities and towns usually borrow for building schools and things like that.
 
but the debt you see in these figures is all the federal budget.
 
the future payments to pentioneers is part of the public debt. a lot of unions will buy bonds to fund the pention.

I don't know but I will say for sure you are scaring the hell outta me !
 

Rap, there's gotta be a trick to it, whatever it is.
 
And that still does not eliminate the $11 trillion in public debt, nor does it slow the congress down in ecnonomically sinking us completely
 
I'm starting to feel like whether you are the communists or the freedomists, it is the leadership and the very nature of government overlords left UNATTENDED to safeguard our financial interests that has a lot more to do with whether or not your country remains viable.
 
the furstrating part is, this country can be saved. but nobody will make the first move because once that is done, for the next umpteen generations of congress, they cannot take the candy, they cannot "just make a difference" by throwing a ton of money at everythig and anything, and they cannot stuff their friends pants and their off-shore bank accounts with billions.
 
in other words, I don't see it happening soon.

I have very little understanding as to what has been going on for the last 50 years. Most of my life has been two jobs, or more, and get money on the side whenever possible to keep the lights on and the heat going. I tried college three times but couldn't make it work.
 
I have always viewed the subject of economics as a crystal ball throw the chicken bones type of science.
 
I do know what a thousand dollars looks like and how much space it takes to hold it. That's about the upper limit of my real money experience.
 
I might be in incorrect but I don't see how they could bee using actual money/checks in these transactions. If the government needs 'actual' money, as I understand the system, they call the fed and the fed then places an order for 'bills' from Korea or whoever has the money printing contract. Somebody is holding all that 'real' money someplace.

As best I know, the actual CASH that the feds took from the SS coffers went to pay some vietnam war debt and also, to help promote Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" (another costly, liberal experimental failure) and that those monies are truly OWED. so they shoyuld be listed as public debt, not private.
 
They reason that since the Feds own the social security trust (they do NOT, the people do, they are the executors), then you cannot owe yourself money - unlike the debt owed to bondholders, as an example.
 
I wish I knew the exact figure as to how much the general treasurey owes social security including interest, but no one does, it is "private". I do know this, however,,, a private investment firm that was on local talk radio show about 10 years ago said that if they did the investing of the SS funds and exactly mimicked everything that social security did (paid out) with those monies but did not "lose track" of untolled billions of it,
 
when you went to retire, you would get the exact same benefits PLUS a $200,000 cash pay out.
THAT is how much the feds raped the system.