I just realized something here.....
 
Check out DualSpace's Avatar... before he changes it!
 
Now, is it ME......? ahhh, like why am I thinking,, Dual,,, you are one LAZY guy!
 
You sat in front of a MIRROR,,,, and took your own pic......?????
Talk about Rube Goldberg!!
 
DUDE!!!! Isn't that what wives are for??? I mean, come on
You don't cut your own hair too, do you???
 
"For the love of GOD, man"
 

*shrug*. i'll let the avatars speak for themselves.

 
Dude if you really believe the earth is only 6000+ years old. There is no reason to debate evolution. After 5 years of you bringing this up this point refutes evolution. You win .
 
 
 
 
 
D

 
gotcha!

For whatever the reason,,, this gets a lot christians of all stripes:
 
ask them if they believe god created the universe: they say "yes"
turn water into wine?,,, raise the dead?,,, resurect yourself?,,, YES YES YES
 
Now, ask them if Jesus was born to a vrigin mother:
 
"How the heck can THAT Be" ;
 
Just a little funny that don't really have any bearing on the subject at hand, just thought I'd throw that in.

.. I'm fairly convinced, that many, if not most aspects of 'Life,' is One Big 'Game' of 'GOTCHA'!!!
 
.. It's being played out All the time, in big, mid-size, and small arenas;
including, in several different ways, on "Caissa's Web"! ..D-u-h?!..

I'd be the first to admit that 'JC' was Not born to a "vrigin" mother!
 
Assuming you meant, 'virgin,' I believe that there's a verse in the Bible,{which can probably also be 'googled,' with 'background' info.}, 'Is Anything too hard for God'{?!} {rhetorical; and nothing 'funny' about it!} In my, 'trolling' for the 'Truth' mode}.

 
Zen,,, just call it "Trolling for Jesus"

'Snoop,' I'd be interested to know, as to what part {or parts} of 'JC's Message/account, {besides, the "virgin birth"}, you find just too hard, {or even, ridiculous} to believe in?!
 
It's even been shown, that some species of {female} creatures, on rare occasions, are known to give birth to their own kind; {some even recently}, without the 'benefit' of any of their male counterparts around!
 
Even the Scriptures, literally foresaw, that.. 'the wisdom of God, is the foolishness of {unregenated} man'{!} -- Also, you.. as we all were, were obviously born once, {physically}; but 'JC' {as I recall}, made reference for the need to be 'born again,' through 'Faith'!

Well, Zen,,,, it's like this...
 
Here I am!!!!
 
And I admit I don't know how got here, and I especailly don't know how self proclaimed ENLIGHTENED ones know how I got here,,, either! They can calculate how they themslevs got here, but please.... my life, I'll decide, thank you.
 
All of the scriptures could be true,,, none could. I can't prove it either way, nor do I intend to even try. Nobody can do that, IMO.
 
For people who have total faith in the word of other people they never met,,, fine! I have no problem with them at all. I just wish the followers had the same respect for me and MY belief as they do their own.
 
All I know is,, God never spoke to me, nor did he ever leave an indisputable, indellible mark on earth for all to see AND... not be able to dispute its meaning/purpose. And he SHOULD have, had he intended to. He didn't,,,, that much is clear.
 
I am comfortable with my position because if God is all he is cracked up to be by the believers,,,, he'll never condemn me for failing to adhere to "things" that are clearly beyond my grap of understanding.
NOR,,, will God condemn me for not taking the word of complete strangers that lived - oh, so long ago, for such a deep, personal decision as how to treat the believability of a deity. Heck, political LEADERS ask us to trust in what they say, ALL THE TIME!
 
right, wrong, or indifferent, I am cool with the guy upstairs, I am quite sure of that. I do not deny him,,, but I demand only to talk to HIM.... not his elite followers who SAY they are in direct communication with.. . Him.
 
does that help?
 
 

'Snoop' said..{an excerpt}..'I just wish the followers had the same respect for me and MY belief as they do their own.

All I know is,, God never spoke to me, nor did he ever leave an indisputable, indellible mark on earth for all to see AND... not be able to dispute its meaning/purpose. And he SHOULD have, had he intended to. He didn't... that much is clear.
 
'ZEN' replys, {if not, point by every point}.. What caused me to ask you 'Snoop,' was your own apparent Lack of respect, {as in the, 'LMAO' icon}, in conjunction with the concept of 'JC's 'virgin birth'!
 
If by your own admission, you don't know how much {if at all}, the {Christian} Bible is true{?}.. why single out 'JC's 'virgin birth' for your object of derision?! .. Wouldn't that be an example of you, Not 'walking-the-walk,' regarding your proclaimed desire for respect, for your Own belief {or lack thereof} system?!
 
As for "God never spoke" to you; that should be understood More in the context of.. if people want to 'do their own thing,' God, {perfect gentleman that HE Is}, is Not going to intrude on your 'party'! ..barring two posts, by myself, Re. your beliefs, {as this is my likely, last one} .. and Who knows how many inquiring posts, directed to you, by 'IBIJ'?! {droll humor}.
 
Ps. Regarding, never being 'spoken to' by someone, or entity; I can say the same thing Re. 'MTV' {on the 'boob-tube'!}; just because I choose Not to listen to that, doesn't mean that it's not there; and oddly enough, like the Scriptures {albeit, on a Very different level}, Both, are True to their 'message'!
 
Pps. 'Snoop,' if you are Truly Sincere, in Not wanting to be further 'bothered' by believers like myself; suffice it to say, that making a concious decision Not to 'snipe' at this, my latest post, or Christianity, in general; Will go a 'long way' in insuring that I won't be prolythesizing, You in particular, anymore! ..

'ZEN' replys, {if not, point by every point}.. What caused me to ask you 'Snoop,' was your own apparent Lack of respect, {as in the, 'LMAO' icon}, in conjunction with the concept of 'JC's 'virgin birth'!
 
Disrespect....? a curious observation, is more like it. If one embraces the notiton that God created the entire universe out of nothing, why would said person find it hard to believe that a virgin birth had occured under God's command?
 
And I do not pick sides here, - believe in the virign birth as you (anyone) wish, but yes, it is commical to see one hold one view without the other. And if any disrepect were intended in that observation, it is only to the people who believe in one but not the other,, not to people who beleive in both nor the people who believe in neither.
 

If by your own admission, you don't know how much {if at all}, the {Christian} Bible is true{?}.. why single out 'JC's 'virgin birth' for your object of derision?! .. Wouldn't that be an example of you, Not 'walking-the-walk,' regarding your proclaimed desire for respect, for your Own belief {or lack thereof} system?!
 
I hope my above cleared this up. I am not ridiculing anyone who believes in the virgin birth, only those who DON'T - yet do believe in God's other capacities.

As for "God never spoke" to you; that should be understood More in the context of.. if people want to 'do their own thing,' God, {perfect gentleman that HE Is}, is Not going to intrude on your 'party'!
 
Fine with me either way! I don't ask or demand of anything from God. If he wants to speak to me,,, fine, I'll listen. And if he wants me to party on,, that is fine, too. You see, all communications have to be initiated by God, since my cellphone plan only covers the US of A. Oh, and in leau of not talking to God directly,,, I do NOT consider "reading Ezechial" the same as "listening to God". Truly. And since it is a lot easier for God to find me than it is the other way around,, I think I will just hold pat until God WANTS to engage. It will happen if HE wants it to. You know that.

Anytime... and I mean,, any time... .and God, I am sure KNOWS that. I am here to talk to him. But if he has not done so by now with myself and billions of others.... oh, well! I guess that is just "God's Will".
 

Ps. Regarding, never being 'spoken to' by someone, or entity; I can say the same thing Re. 'MTV' {on the 'boob-tube'!}; just because I choose Not to listen to that, doesn't mean that it's not there; and oddly enough, like the Scriptures {albeit, on a Very different level}, Both, are True to their 'message'!
 
Very good point, not that I ever denied that God was there.
I happen to beleive in God, personally,,, as to why God chooses not to talk to us all, I haven't a clue. But like I say,, ,whenever God is ready,,, I am here. He can talk about anything he wants with me,, but soemhow, I don't expect that to happen any time too soon.
 

Pps. 'Snoop,' if you are Truly Sincere, in Not wanting to be further 'bothered' by believers like myself; suffice it to say, that making a concious decision Not to 'snipe' at this, my latest post, or Christianity, in general; Will go a 'long way' in insuring that I won't be prolythesizing, You in particular, anymore! ..
 
I have no problem with your posting in here about God,,, your views, or anything else. If we engage in a thread together, I am sure it won't be so I can ridicule you, chritianity, or anything related.
 
I have my beliefs, and if you desire to discuss/change them,,, the only thing I will always ask you for, is proof. and NO,,, I do not consider words written down on parchmnent, a long long time ago, by who-knows-who!?,, as "proof". I can show you LOTS of books or text of any kind, where the author is totaly out of it, or knowingly lying. And I know of no lithmus test in the case of the scriptures and their authors. "They are what they are", whatever that is. Yeah, Coach Belichick is like a God worth quoting, sometimes.
 
IMO, you have to be very careful when you simply take such utterings of other people,,, zealots, in fact, in good faith, and automatically think of them as truly what the authors simply SAY they are, "God's word",,, because other religions have exactly the same claims - authors that wrote down God's word. And who knows, maybe all of these things really are God's words, but I seriously doubt that any Christian would suddenly find themselves thumbing through the Koran or the sutras of the ZEN Bhuddists to find "truth" and God, if you know what I mean. So why don't the christians just have faith the way the Muslims and Bhuddists have, and read the Koran and sutras? Well, that is EXACTLY where you are going with me. You will not take those people's words for anything pertaining to God,,, nor will I take Ezechail's word for it either, whoever the heck this Ezechal really is.
 
And is it a "slap in the face" to Bhuddists and Muslims because you - in THEIR mind,, deny God's word, carte blanche?
 
tough question.
 
One final point,, for eight years+, I had religious instructors browbeating me into talking to god,, through prayer. And I can honestly tell you ,the only words I EVER heard back, were the dim echos off the walls of my too oft' beaten skull.
 
I take that lack of connect as "God's Will"
 

I think religion is out of control and we should just try to look for a more logical answer than arguing with HallofMirrors changling (yes it's a classic horror film), ZenMaster.
 
This topic was about evolution, not demonstrations of fillibustering. And I'm sorry if the layman cannot understand the mechanisms of evolution (recall IBIJ's condascending rant at simon-- 'keep it in laymans term, please' - on the simple example of fission. i.e. 'keep it simple so we can understand'. why???? for you????? isn't that insane? should we keep the gorillas informed in the same manner?). If you don't understand the science don't depress us with your ignorance. Go cry that you didn't get the right education.
 
while i'm here, the movie Rightous Kill is ~ 3/5. it's ok for a night out. best line is "we took six bullets out of this guy, and three were from previous incidents. he's a tank"
 
 

 
Good line!
 
One of my fav's is the joke about Vince Foster (Clinton Big Whig),,,, six shots to the head.
 
Corroner: "It's the worst case of suicide I ever saw"
 
LOL!

Ok,
 Well i don't..so i suspect that a debate - friendly or otherwise - would be difficult.
 
However it occurs to me after reading your posts and those of others, that we do have something in common. We sometimes find it easier to use the words of others, (in your case the Bible) to make or point or to define ourselves as holding a particular position on something.
 
I’m the same... sometimes the words of others better explain us than we can ourselves. With that in mind here are some words that I often reflect on.
 
"Once a Mighty Ship
by Rodney Rowen
 
Looking back at the birth of my son, I think that I envisioned a mighty
sailing ship being launched into the sea of life. My son would proudly
command this sleek, beautiful vessel, forged of my own hopes and dreams;
deftly trimming the huge white sails that would catch the winds of
opportunity. We would journey together for a time while I showed him places he could go and help him when the need arose. Eventually, I would leave the ship and let him sail alone.
 
Two years after my son was born, my wife and I noticed that he was not doing things that most kids his age were doing. The doctors started running tests, and he began physical, occupational and speech therapies. At first, I wanted to believe that they were all wrong since I could still see my son on his mighty ship. Later, I realized the doctors were right, and there was something wrong.
 
A storm of emotions raged within me, engulfing my son's ship. Rain pounded it from the terrible sadness I felt. Thunder clapped in anger about having an abnormal child. Fierce winds of grief drove my son's mighty ship, crushing it upon the rocks. Worst of all, I "lost" the son I both wanted and expected.
 
Over time, the storm lessened, and the clouds cleared. I saw the ship had survived, but now it had been transformed from a sleek, racing machine that easily sliced through the water to a barge laboriously slogging through tough currents. The once mighty sails had been replaced with small tattered ones, and the hull gaped with large holes. I marveled that the ship could even float.
 
My son still proudly stands at the helm, unaware anything is wrong. I wonder if he will ever understand that his ship doesn't look like the others. As I look at the ship now, I see many other people at work. Some are patching the massive holes which everyone knows can never be fully repaired. Other people are just painting small spots or offering encouragement whenever they can.
 
Still others think all this work is excessive. We constantly battle
government agencies, insurance companies, and schools to make sure our son gets what he needs and deserves. My wife and I find ourselves acting as supervisors trying to make sure everyone is doing what is best for him.
 
People suggest we try "this" and "that," but there is only so much time and money. We constantly judge which things help, which do not, and if it is time to try another "something new." It is difficult, because everything seems to help a little, but nothing helps a lot. Hope comes and goes, as do feelings of guilt for not doing more.
 
I realize that my job as guide and teacher is going to be much more
difficult. Over and over, I teach him to do things that other kids pick up naturally. I feel such despair when I see other children half his age doing things that I only hope he will do some day. But, there IS hope, since improvement does happen, however slowly. I still have the same pride that all parents feel when their child finally accomplishes a task which they haven't been able to do before.
 
Lately, I have begun to wonder what the future will hold for my son, and
there are many questions. Will he live independently? Will he have a job? Will he have any friends? It becomes clear that I may never be able to let my son sail his shop alone. In horror, I realize I may even die before my son completes his journey, and then I start to worry about the special wills and trusts which need to be created. I am haunted wondering who will take care of my son when I am unable. I find it difficult to even ask others to do this job let alone imagining anyone accepting it. Sometimes it seems so overwhelming, all these extra things I need to do.
 
Then I look at my son, and I see a little boy who seems so happy and
content. He does not understand that he is different, and for that I believe he is lucky. I think I am lucky, too, since he is teaching me some important lessons. I believe all children are born with a kind of innocence that is quickly shattered as they grow and learn about "life." The life my son faces becomes a kind of blessing, since he will radiate that child-like innocence for a much longer period of time. In many ways, I also believe he exemplifies how everyone in the world should act. When he is happy, he smiles or laughs; when he is sad, he cries. He does not understand the societal rules which mask so many of our thoughts and feelings, nor does he exhibit any trace of the greed, dishonesty, racism, or bitterness so prevalent in today's world.
 
My son also gives to the world without expecting anything in return. While walking with him in the shopping mall, I have watched him look at people, make eye contact, and cheerfully say "Hi." Invariably, the person smiles back, and he has, for the moment at least, given them a small gift of kindness. He has also helped me question what is important in life. Is it really important what school a person attends, what job they have or how much money they make? I am beginning to realize that the most important things in life have more to do with just enjoying life.
 
Having a child with special needs is a strange gift. It is not one I would ever wish on anyone, but would never give up having received it. Taken individually, the additional challenges seem small, but the collective whole seems immense at times. The storms of rage and emotion still blow through, but now I wait to see where we will end up, knowing that my son's ship will indeed survive, and that we will journey to some unanticipated but exciting ports."
 
IBIJ, should you feel compelled to respond to this post(and please don't read this as an invitation) I only ask that choose you your words VERY, VERY carefully....

 
You Devil, you

ZEN,,,,
 
I did want to add one more point to my already too lengthy post of response to you:
 
If modern anthropologists suddenly discovered some ancient works of Diogenes, and he boasted of a scientific marvel, E=MC^2,, and he PROVED it in his own way,,,,, we can make some clear-minded assesments of this intelligent Greek dude, Diogenes - based on our own knowledge base.
 
Now, please show me HOW one can assess, say, Luke, or Mathew, when all we really know of them are the knowledges they wrote down, but cannot be vetted by comparing anything in our own knowledge base to.
 
Christians say, "have faith".
 
ahhh,,,, so did the dudes that came up with cold fusion.
 
Meh.....
 
I'm from Missouri.. . SHOW me.
 

 
Hi SP
 
No, Catholic priests did not write the Bible. They did however rewrite it for the modern age in the form of the NIV. Actually, this is the miracle of miracles as the Bible clearly lays out the truth (different from their beliefs) even though they were involved in interpreting it. One could only be inspired to write what they don't believe if God was using them as an instrument to write through. Thus, believing what "these men" have to say is really not essential while believing what God has to say is CRITICAL!
 
Where the two divide as they often do, believing what God says is of utmost import.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

Hi SPUD
 
Responding to copy/paste type material is not my gig, just ask HallOfMirrors (AKA Caissa's Google paster).
 
However, just because one person uses a particular reference that the other chooses not to recognize doesn't mean that a debate cannot transpire. Isn't our current race for the Presidenacy a perfect example of this?
 
Therefore, bring whatever you like to the table of discussion and I will do the same. If we choose, I truly believe we can do this in a friendly manner should the rest of the posters who choose not to follow these guidelines allow us to do so.
 
Here's a topic to start with...
 
What happens after death backed up by whatever source you choose to use?
 
Let's start a new post with that above question if you so choose.
 
Take care
IBIJ

Hi IBIJ
 
 Yeah, youre right which mechanics that triggered the big bang is of very little significance to your original question. And as Im sure you are awere its rather difficult to anwser this question without resorting to some kind of manufacturing process and thereby falling into your creator related trap.
However I think there are natural phenomenas in wich a massive, seemingly random force effects us humans in a positive way. You mentioned an example invovling vulcanic activity. I dont know enough about saint helen to argue your disqualification of that example but I would think that people living in Iceland or Hawaii are pretty happy with the eruptions causing the births of their islands.
Perhaps my example of the sun could still be valid, the suns core is in a way constantly exploding. (By the way I have never heard of an optional explaination to how the sun operates and wikipedia doesnt provide any such thing either, I suspect fusion is undisputed and have been so for quite some time.)
 
 In my world all living things do two things: reproduce and consume energy. The earth does neither, to me the earth is nothing but a big rock. Even if it wasnt what would the earth be in a survival race with and how could favourible attributes be passed on if the earth doesnt have any offspring? I stand by my statement that evolution and the big bang are two very different concepts that cant be linked or compared in any way.
 
 Intelegent design is NOT science, this is how science work:
- find what topic you want to do research on
- make a educated guess on how things work based on what you allready know
-construct a test or series of observations to test your theory
- if the test support your theory youre probobly right test some more to make sure, if not make a better guess and start over.
 
Its absolutly impossible to construct a test to wether god(s) exists or not. You may not count yore favourite bestseller as an observation, how are the rest of us supposed to be 100% sure that it really is the word of god - equally impossible to test.
 
///Simon