{'Caissa' transcriber's preface: This excerpted Bible passage {Re. the Pharaoh}, is one of several different Scripture examples, that either supports.. or at least seems to support, both 'determinism' {'aka,' pre-destination}, and gives credence to Wm. Shakespeare's observation that.. 'All the world's a stage,' and we {all} are {to some degree}, 'actors, with our entrances and exits.'
The other, and Primary Bible example of 'determinism' {which contrasts, with a pure human free-will universe}, appears in, 1st Peter 1:19-20, where it refers to 'the Lamb' {of God, aka,'JC'}, being 'slain Before {my emphasis}, the foundation of the world'; a subject which I'll address {actually 'google'}, in an upcoming post.
 
 
The best, most direct, simple answer to the question above, {Re. God hardening Pharaoh's heart}, is: “In order to demonstrate His power, and in order that His name might be proclaimed throughout the entire earth.”
 
The reason that is the best, most direct, simple answer to the question is because it is God's own answer. See Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17.
 
God raised up Pharaoh and hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to promote His own glory.
 
“But,” you may say, “that doesn’t sound right to me. It just doesn't seem to me that God would arrange for a person to actually sin and rebel just to make Himself great.”
 
At which point I would ask, “How do you propose that we determine the truth about what motivates the heart of God? Will we base our conclusions on our own feelings about what seems right? Or will we base our conclusions on what God Himself says in the Bible to be true about what motivates Him?”
 
Many wise and reputable commentators propose that when the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.
 
Dr. Norman Geisler, for instance, a scholar whose work we regard highly and frequently cite in this publication, holds that God did not directly harden Pharaoh's heart {or anyone else's heart for that matter} contrary to their own free choice, but only indirectly, through their own choice. In their excellent book When Critics Ask (©1992 Victor Books), Geisler and Howe say,
 
“God in His omniscience foreknew exactly how Pharaoh would respond, and He used it to accomplish His purposes. God ordained the means of Pharaoh's free but stubborn action…”
 
And that's the position of many other respected commentators. But not all. There are those who believe that the simplest and most accurate reading of Exodus chapters 4-9, and the corresponding text in Romans 9:17ff, rather indicates that it was God Himself and none other who was the primary, initiating, direct, and driving force behind Pharaoh's choice to harden his heart.
 
Romans 9, is perhaps the most difficult chapter in the Bible to read, accurately understand, and fully accept, because what Romans 9 teaches flies in the face of our human inclination to be independent, self-determining, and proud. Romans 9 indicates that it is God, not us—not me—who is in control! In fact, it shows that God is in such total control that He can and does sovereignly elect to show mercy to some people while hardening the hearts of others. And it shows that He is just in doing so. And it shows that I am in no position to challenge Him on the matter {Romans 9:20-21}. And it shows that I am also still fully responsible for all of my actions and accountable for all of my choices.
 
Am I then saying that God Himself actually arranged for Pharaoh to sin?!
 
Yes, in much the same sense that He arranged for Joseph's brothers to sell Joseph into slavery {Genesis 50:20}, Satan to attack Job {Job 1:12}, Jews and Romans to crucify Jesus {Acts 2:23}, and Sin to exist in the first place.
 
Well, if that's true, how can we explain what seems like a contradiction—that God wills sin which is, by definition, against His will.
 
Theologians have often handled this paradox by concluding that there are two wills in God, sometimes referred to as God's sovereign will and His revealed {perceptive} will, or His will of command and His will of decree. And also by understanding that in God's view and plan, it is good that there is evil in this world. Note—that is not to say that evil is itself good; only that evil serves a worthy end, and is therefore an important and integral part of God's good purposes.
 
But isn't God compassionate toward all men, even sinners? And if so, how could He harden Pharaoh's heart while simultaneously loving him and feeling compassion for him?
 
Dr. John Piper addresses this as follows:
 
“There is a genuine inclination in God's heart to spare those who have committed treason against His kingdom. But His motivation is complex, and not every true element in it rises to the level of effective choice. In God's great and mysterious heart, there are kinds of longings and desires that are real.. Yet not all of these longings govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of His wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive {Romans 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 2:9}. There are holy and just reasons for why the affections of God's heart have the nature and intensity and proportion that they do.”
 
 
Author: Daryl E. Witmer of AIIA Institute.
 
Text Copyright © 2007, AIIA Institute, All Rights Reserved - except as noted on attached “Usage and Copyright” page that grants ChristianAnswers.Net users generous rights for putting this page to work in their homes, personal witnessing, churches and schools.
Sources and recommended resources:
 
* Audio file from Desiring God
* “Are There Two Wills in God?” from Desiring God
* God's Covenants, God's Discipline, God's Glory, Vol. 4, by Donald Grey Barnhouse, Scripture Truth Book Co., n.d.

HOM, You need to take some advice from Ibij about reading the bible. Specifically his recent admission that "as usual I did not read all of your post". This an essential technique and the only way to avoid wading through endless contradictions, murky meanings, and lets face it..a lot of the bible is a load of boring crap. Let me save you some time and effort with this advice....no matter how much you study the bible, everyone ends up agreeing that man cannot understand god's plan. So why bother trying? Just skim through the best bits and come out of it with a general understanding, then you can get on with drinking beer and watching sport. Of course it would be remiss of me not to remind you that the main events in the bible did not happen, the main characters are fictional, the supporting characters are fictional, as are those who appeared in alphabetical order, and those who appeared in order of appearance. Except for the invisible man; he is real.

"Let me save you some time and effort with this advice....no matter how much you study the bible, everyone ends up agreeing that man cannot understand god's plan."
 
 
Couldn't agree more, Derm. If Christians really knew what they were talking about in every aspect of Chritianity, there would only be one sect of Christianity and all christians would be in agreement on the roots of the religion. However, there are more flavors of chritianity in the world than there are flavors of Baskin Robbin's ice cream.
 
Sorry, if the very leaders are in conflict on basic interpretations of God's word, how can pedestrian believers choose sides?
 
I don't think God is so cruel as to put all humans to that test,,, that is,,, which human proclaiming to know the REAL word of God is telling the truth?
 
then, of course, there are the Muslims, Bhudists and whoever all saying their word of God is the REAL word of God, but of course, that is a whole different matter

I know the true teachings of Gods Word!
Please send your donations to Doorman @ caissa.com for more information.
 
D

I suppose that the same argument could be made, for those who choose to 'worship milk'! -- Notice that No mention is Ever made among the True "Milk" believers, as to precisely What kind of "milk" is being talked about{?!}, or even if it could possibly include, {under the 'Big Tent' approach}, St. Paul's Bible-referenced, 'Milk-of-the-Word'!?
 
You have cows' milk, cows' butter milk, goats' milk, deers' milk, soy milk; plus, all those different fat-contents of cows' milk; ie. 1 & 2% milk; and of course, your even fatter-in-content, regular homongenized milk!
..And then, you even have your "cream" afficianados; which, though lacking in the "milk" generic name, for those who 'swear by' drinking "cream," {with their coffee?}, you might have a fight on your hands, if you were to argue with them, that "cream" was Not a part of the extended 'milk family'!
.. Using your same multiple-choice, argument-conundrum, {Re. picking the 'True' Bible interpretation}, among many interpretations to choose from; with each one claiming to be uniquely & exclusively, 'True'!; conversely, with So Many different types of 'milk' to choose from; with each & every type of milk having its own avid following, why pick "Milk," at All?!

God did not harden Pharhoe's heart any more than He made Lucifer disobey Him or Judas betray Him.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

To borrow one of your own 'pet' phrases, 'IBIJ'; Who are inquiring believer's minds to believe{?}.. Your own arbitrary naysaying statement, {without any foundational Scriptural backup?}.. or what is written in Exodus 9:16, and Romans 9:17; both very similar in content...
 
ie. Romans 9:17, reads, {referring to Pharoah's initial & separate denials, of allowing the ancient Israeli's their evacuation & freedom}, "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew {show} my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
 
Ergo, The 'parting of the Red Sea,' and other related miracles at that point in time, was God's way of showing Himself to everyone that preferred to worship various man-constructed "deities"; and in the Divine plan of things, these manifestations of God's Power, was Not dependent, {upon
correct reading}, on Pharoah's whimsy; as in, allowing for Pharoah to come to any other decision, {Re. the Israeli captive slaves}, but what history records him as having done.
 
Basing this argument, once again, on the preceding Scripture{s}, it reads; 'For this same purpose did I {God} raise him {Pharoah} up'; had Pharoah, of his own free will, hypothetically allowed the {ancient} Israelis' their freedom from the get-go; it not only would've been little noted by history; but the God-of-the-Bible, would've had an important missed opportunity, of imparting a moral lesson to mankind, {including, future generations}, that was accentuated by an event, that
your everyday physics, cannot explain to this day!

So you would contend that God creates bad people?
 
Was Lucifer evil when he was created? Or did he become evil according to his own greed and selfishness?
 
If we contend that God created evil, then how can we believe that He is a "good God"? Does God create beings who have no hope of salvation? Or is it by their own free will that they become unsaved?
 
If He creates beings who have no hope of salvation then how do you explain the concept of "free will"?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

I never said.. or suggested, that people like 'Pharoah' had 'No hope of Salvation,' simply because they were playing out a role that apparently was {Divinely} assigned to them.
 
'FYI', it wouldn't surprise me, {without knowing for a fact}, if the same principle applied to Hitler & Stalin, and who knows how many others{!?}; partly because.. otherwise, how did "Nostradamas" predict the rise of "Hister," {Oh well, no one's perfect!}.. a description that left little to the imagination, as to who he was talking about; albeit, in a many century, future setting!
 
Truth be known though, I feel like I'm somewhat 'over-my-head'/beyond my 'pay-grade,' in all of this, as regards the details; as should most anyone! --Also, if you 'google': Did God create evil?; one can search through the dozens {at a minimum} of relevant 'Web'-links, that I'm sure come to multiple different conclusions, and all 'shadings' inbetween!
 
Here's an excerpt from the Scripture, that seems to be one of the main
'bones-of-contention,' as to precisely what it means{!?}
 
Did God create evil?
 
Isaiah 45:7
 
KJV: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
NIV: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
 
 
-- Suffice it to say.. that for myself, I have better things to do, than to wallow & speculate, in the precise 'whys-and-wherefores' of this topic; which I take, You, would immensely enjoy doing, and dialoguing about{!?}
 
Ps. I know the temptation is probably great, from your standpoint; but, I'd appreciate it, 'IBIJ,' if you don't try to guess and/or further deduce, what my own views, may or may not be. ..

God did not create evil, evil is the absence of good.
 
God did not create dark, dark is the absence of light.
 
A plain and simple fact.
 
Grandpa13
 

The only problem is, that if God created evil then God by logic would be evil. However if He created free will and allowed His creation to do what they would with it then that is an entirely different matter. Thus God did create free will but it was His creation that created evil first with Lucifer then mankind.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

maybe but who put the evil in grEVILlea or was I born with an evil heart?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Apart from accepting the undeserved free gift of grace that Jesus provided for our salvation no one is worthy. Which means we all have an evil nature that must be battled against until the day we are finally transformed into our glorious bodies that are meant to inherit the Kingdom of God.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

No one falls short of the glory of god. God does not exist. Throw off the guilt and misery and unrewarded submissive groveling. Come to the Milk side. Or spend the rest of your life being fooled by the likes of pastor Mike Gugliemucci.People don't have an evil nature, just a gullible nature....will swallow anything. I burst out laughing that 10's of millions of Americans believe that the devil is real. It's hilarious that you believe you have friend up in the sky. You don't. It's just your mind refusing to accept that one day it will all be over. With the bonus of that smug feeling of superiority over your fellow man.

You may be right Grrr... what if your wrong?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

'IBIJ' is alluding to "Pascal's Wager," {which can be 'googled'}, and is a Deep and centuries-old, philosophical argument/question; which, if the "Google" search-engine is any guide, {obviously it Is!}, many, many-Many words, have been written {by many people}, concerning the proverbial 'whys-and-wherefores,' Re. does it make more 'sense' to be a believer, as opposed to embracing various degrees of unbelief; with likely Divine punishment, and-or chastisement in-store, if the 'believers' {or Bible}, is later proven right.
 
{see, 'pascal's wager,' on the 'Web'}.

I am totally unmoved by the possibility of being wrong. I have no interest in groveling to an incompetent evil narcissistic god. What if you're wrong? Actually there is no if...you are flat out wrong. God does not exist.It is plainly obvious. Anyone who believes in god, has not thought it through, is brainwashed, is pressured into it through peer/ community/ family influence, is nutty, uses religion as a veneer of respectability or just can't be bothered to stand up for what they know to be true; that religion is nonsense. But don't get me wrong, I don't mind that you have religious beliefs. Just don't expect me to encourage you in your delusion. Remember, if you did not post about religion, I would not reply.

What if your wrong?
You'll die not knowing what a waste of time it was cluttering up this BB .
 
D

 
If two cars are rushing at each other in opposite directions and make contact has there ever been a time where such a collison has had the end result of improving the automobiles? No car jokes here... LOL.
 
If two anything collide and explode has the result ever improved what existed prior... minus two X wives perhaps... LOL?
 
Somehow this world came into existance, some believe from a large explosion called a big bang. How is it that this explosion resulted in improving the elements when there is no evidance of this taking place in any other capacity within our existance?
 
On that note, I would be interested in you further explaining how it is clearly obvious that God does not exist.
 
Now, lets look at what you have said a religious person must be.
* Blinded
* Brainwashed
* Comformist
* Nutty
* Weak
Did I sum it up well? Can't say that some of these terms haven't defined myself in certain parts of my life. However, as a non-Christian can you without doubt say that you are never...
* Blinded
* Brainwashed
* Comformist
* Nutty
* Weak
Within your own life?
 
I find it interesting that you made a blatant statement that God does not exist and then followed it up with "the state of a religious person" without providing backup evidance for either position. I'm sure that was an oversight, which I'll be interested in you correcting now.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ
 
PS: As long as my Cassian membership lasts I'll be more than interested in hearing your views on Christianity.

Not really, as the challenges have helped to ground me more in following the Lord Jesus Christ as I research Scripture to find out the ultimate truth of things.
 
Perhaps it's a waste of time for you to read and respond, in the larger picture I hope that is not the case. However, only time itself will answer that question.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ