http://www.bertrandbiblechurch.com/Prophecies%20(Israel%20&%20End%20Times).pdf

Well, in case anyone missed it, the reason why the so-called rebirth of Israel is so controversial amongst Jews (and Christians) is this:
 
For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
 
Note, God's operative word,,,,, "I", not christian MEN of the UN.
 
This prophecy became history in 1948 when the United Nations granted a homeland to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel was reborn!
 
Disagree. Men killed and stole to make the rebirth nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
 
Note, God's written word to all:
"Thou shalt not kill"
"Thou shalt not steal"
 
Sorry, God did not re-create the land known as Israel. People did, and they will not go unjudged for the manner in which they did it, in the hereafter.
 
Remember Jesus' words.... "All children are God's children"
 
I am sure Jesus/God never intended that such compeltely inhumane treatment could come to any of his children just because christians and jews share a common prejudice against muslims, and just because they want their land and homes.
 
but that is not for me to judge or rectify.
 
All I can say is, America and American Christians are on such a wrong path, ie, ME policy, that we will surely enter WWIII over it.
 
the only way to prevent it, IMO, is to strictly adhere to christian teachings. Christ made it clear he is willing to lead the way, all christians have to do is actually LISTEN to him and strictly adhere to his words. treat ALL people like people with rights and with dignity and respect, not just christians and jews
 
have a good one.

And then you have the whole grafting and pruning gig of Romans.
 
Romans 11
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
 
Could it be that Israel the nation is no longer Israel the people of God? If so... who would Israel be today?
 
Hmmmm... a thought to ponder.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

Hi Snoop
 
We can treat people of all walks good to be sure. However, not with a gospel message that has been watered down and distorted. First we need to correct our errors within the body of Christ, then we will be ready to reach out to the lost and dieing world.
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
PS: Further, prophetically things will happen in just the way that prophecy predicts. The times and seasons are here now. Soon the rock made without hands will indeed be descending from the skies to claim His own.

intersting prophecy - implying God's vengance on us, I assume?
 
As the old saying goes, God helps those that help themslves.
 
there may still be time, but I am skeptical.
 

'SnoopDog,' posted, in reply:

Note, God's operative word,,,,, "I", not christian MEN of the UN.
'HoM's response: In All of the Bible, {both testaments}, God more often works Through 'man' to acheive his goals! Why should the multi-stage 'creation' {over decades}, acheived by God, once again, working Through
"men" {women, too}, be a contradiction{?!}.. Stupid questions, For instance, Did God build "Noah's Ark"?; Was the Apostle Paul a mere mortal man{?}, or alternatively, an angel, let's say, posing as a "man"; who has us All fooled to this very day?! {rhetorical}

'Snoop Dog,' said: Disagree. Men killed and stole to make the rebirth nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy.
'HoM's, reply: Congrats, for being greatly influenced by the "rejectionist Arab"
'talking-points'; in Not being able to differentiate between the agressors, and the invaded! {side note: Was Israel blameless, in every war-related injustice? ..Of course not, 'silly'!.. Just appreciably Less so, than the invading Arab armies, etc.}

"SnoopDog": Note, God's written word to all:
"Thou shalt not kill"
'HoM': "Thou shalt not steal" Those {Divine} commandments, speak of an ideal!
Would not Germany/Hitler have won 'W.W.2', if {Pres.} 'FDR,' issued instructions to our military, to the effect of: 'Oh, by-the-way, Don't shoot, unless you're first shot At'; and, 'No bombing 'runs,' under Any circumstances'!

Sorry, God did not re-create the land known as Israel. People did, and they will not go unjudged for the manner in which they did it, in the hereafter.
'HoM': YEESH! I've long been aware that Even important events in history, is to some degree, a subjective matter; and sometimes even 180-degree poles apart! ..It's Not my mission to recap the {proverbial} 'whys-and-wherefores' here, {much too involved!}, and you're once again showing your ignorance, of the fact, that God/JC, {according to the Bible}, often achieves His goals, THROUGH People!.. Even and including, through violence and war! ..D-U-H{!?}

Remember Jesus' words.... "All children are God's children"
'HoM': Sorry, but I was brought up to believe, that we're All God's "creation"; and that the becoming a 'child-of-God,' requires a separate step of Faith!; and for the record, once again, according to Scriptures, the Jewish people, have a 'special-status' as God's 'Chosen {ethnic}
People'! {Don't 'blame' me, though; you'll need to take up your argument{s} with the inspired men who wrote the Bible!}

I am sure Jesus/God never intended that such compeltely inhumane treatment could come to any of his children just because christians and jews share a common prejudice against muslims, and just because they want their land and homes; but that is not for me to judge or rectify.
 
'HoM': I'm glad you said, that it's 'Not for you to judge'.. Nor I, for that matter; it's just that, We Can't Both be Right! {Hah!}

All I can say is, America and American Christians are on such a wrong path, ie, ME policy, that we will surely enter WWIII over it.

the only way to prevent it, IMO, is to strictly adhere to christian teachings. Christ made it clear he is willing to lead the way, all christians have to do is actually LISTEN to him and strictly adhere to his words. treat ALL people like people with rights and with dignity and respect, not just christians and jews.
 
'HoM': I dare say, that injustices, both real, and perceived, or some combination thereof, have Always resulted, in Neither side being, without guilt; it's just that your apportioning of blame, is, 'imho, 'Skewered! .. Have a good one, also!..

JESUS CHRIST MAN!!!
I would worry that when all yall meet your god ,it doe,snt knee to your groin ,uppercut to your jaw and then have you clean the $hitters of the angels for 500 years till you wise up.
 
D

"God more often works Through 'man' to acheive his goals! Why should the multi-stage 'creation' {over decades}, acheived by God, once again, working Through "men" {women, too}, be a contradiction{?!}.. Stupid questions,"
 
no it is not a stupid question.
 
for every jew/christian that thinks they KNOW what god's will is, there are Muslims that have THEIR opinion on what God's word is. And if God wants "chosen people" to carry out his will, God should make that clearly understood. he should make it clear, that in this case of establishing Israel, "murder" and "stealing" are Ok,and he should have one individual assigned to the taks at hand.
 
do you really believe that or, like the zionists, are you just BENDING things to get the desired outcome?
 
Oh, and God did not build Noah's ark but he did personally instruct Noah to build it. Show me the zionist that god chose to lead his people into re-establishing Israel. I'll wait.
 
"'HoM's, reply: Congrats, for being greatly influenced by the "rejectionist Arab 'talking-points'; "
 
I'll thank you not to put words into my mouth. I am "INFLUENCED" by common sense. Murder is wrong, theft is wrong, and if you want to dance your way around that, go ahead.
 
there is racism in all of this, I am sure you agree. And I ask you, if zionists settled in - say, Canada, and threw everyone there out, or put them in refugee camps, would you still argue that they are only fulfilling god's word? I doubt that very much, because canadians are generally white christian.
 
"Would not Germany/Hitler have won"
 
of course, I too, believe anyone has the right to self defense. So why do you prosecute the muslims in palestine? God gives them the right to defend that which is theirs.
 
 
" God/JC, {according to the Bible}, often achieves His goals, THROUGH People!"
 
Good! I hope you remain solidly in that opinion when the nuke bomb hits Tel Aviv - just God working through people.
 
We haven't even touched on the man-made laws that have been broken by the million over there, or how totally unstable the apartheid situation is. When does common sense kick in and tell you that America has committed an irration act and an act that god would never approve of?
 
Please don't even think of convincing me that God is smiling down on us/israel is we rape and murder god's creations - out of greed for land.
 
I ain't buying it,,, and you're just "bending" it.
 
 
 

"SnoopDog," said: for every jew/christian that thinks they KNOW what god's will is, there are Muslims that have THEIR opinion on what God's word is. And if God wants "chosen people" to carry out his will, God should make that clearly understood. he should make it clear, that in this case of establishing Israel, "murder" and "stealing" are Ok,and he should have one individual assigned to the task at hand.
 
'HoM's reply: As far as I, and many others are concerned, God Does 'make it clearly understood' Re. Israel's re-establishment as a nation, in the 'end times,' {or days}. The last time I googled, 'Israel {in} Bible Prophecy,' {which wasn't recently}, there were some 60-70 pages of "Google" links, by Many different Christian outreaches & organizations; that, with few exceptions, reach the Same Basic Conclusion; including, "Jews for Jesus," who despite their mostly orthodox Jewish detractors, do Not consider themselves as "Christians."
 
..As I indicated in my last reply, history IS subjective, to one degree or another; sometimes even with diametrically opposing views!; what might be "murder and stealing" to you for example, {depending on the case at hand}, might strike myself and other like-minded observers, as "fatal violence" or "killing," and the 'spoils' that come from having won multi-consecutive wars!
 
.. It Should be noted, that had the Arab Palestinians, etc. accepted the "U.N" {sponsored} mandate of 1948 {I believe}, the Palestinian Arabs would've had about 50% of then "Palestine," including, half of Jerusalem! -- The fact that they {the Arabs} wouldn't even accept that
'UN' solution at the time, as 'Not good enough,' and then proceded to lose the '48-49' 'War of {Israeli} Independence' {for starters}, and now you want to literally 'turn back history' {including their '67 defeat}, and have the world believe that what was Not 'good enough' {Re. borders} for the Palestinian Arabs, in 1948, and-or, pre-1967, is Now acceptable to you{!?}
 
.. I'll admit, that the Arabs have their Own version of "chutzpah," by repeatedly losing wars that they started..{even if the last war was indecisive}, and then making demands, as if they had won a war{!?}

"SnoopDog," said: Show me the zionist that god chose to lead his people into re-establishing Israel. I'll wait. {'HoMs': I'll have to assume that that statement makes sense to you, but it loses its meaning in my own mind; since there was No one "Zionist" who contributed to Israel's re-establishment, but rather, more like dozens, hundreds, or thousands; depending on how 'high-profile' a "Zionist" you're referring to}.

"SnoopDog," said: I am "INFLUENCED" by common sense. Murder is wrong, theft is wrong, and if you want to dance your way around that, go ahead.
{'HoMs': I'm not "dancing around" Anything{!}.. Yes, we're All supposedly 'dead-set' against "murder" and "theft"/"stealing"; but in real-world terms, try reconciling that otherwise logical statement, with the pervasive belief that both sides in Any {historical} conflict adhere to, as in.. "One mans' terrorist, is another mans' 'freedom-fighter'"
 
..Just out of curiousity, "Snoop"; are 'suicide-bombers' {of which the Arabs have an overwhelming monopoly on}, "terrorists," or "freedom-fighters" in your opinion? .. And what if the victims of a 'suicide-bomber' are All civilians{?}.. provided that they're all Israelis, does that make it "murder," or merely the "killing" and maiming of 'the enemy'?! {Just wondering, what your answer on this, is}.

"SnoopDog," said: there is racism in all of this, I am sure you agree. And I ask you, if zionists settled in - say, Canada, and threw everyone there out, or put them in refugee camps, would you still argue that they are only fulfilling god's word? I doubt that very much, because canadians are generally white christian.
 
'HoM': Since there's No mention in the Bible of the Jews returning from their "diaspora" to Any Other country, But, the former "Palestine," your analogy loses most of its point. -- Just because the Israelis are the proverbial "Johnny-come-latelies" when it comes to "conquering" {I'll concede you That word!}, a given area; in the partially related tradition of the 'white Americans' and 'native Indians,' Would make it an issue to those who were dispossessed; and all the more so, if their fellow-hosting, bretheren Arabs, cynically separated-out their defeated-in-war, Arab 'cousins,' in squalid refugee-camps, for the past 61 years, and counting; with the literally empty promise that their predicament was only temporary, until they finally defeated the 'hated Israelis' and-or 'Zionists.'

"SnoopDog,": of course, I too, believe anyone has the right to self defense. So why do you prosecute {persecute?} the muslims in palestine? God gives them the right to defend that which is theirs.
.. The 'Muslims-in-Palestine' don't need my 'stamp-of-approval' in order to go about 'doing-
their-thing'; in fact, if they didn't, they would be failing to 'set-the-stage' {if you will}, for the coming {Biblically} prophesied tumult and conflagrations, that is already in its middle-stages!


"God/JC, {according to the Bible}, often achieves His goals, THROUGH People!"
'Snoop': Good! I hope you remain solidly in that opinion when the nuke bomb hits Tel Aviv - just God working through people.
 
If "nuke bombs hit Tel Aviv," it will Only happen if God allows it! Personally, I don't see that happening until what's mentioned in Ezekiel {chapter} 38, takes place; and maybe not even then; since Ezekiel {chapter} 38, Clearly says that Isreal will repel its' invaders, by the 'grace {actually, power} of God'!
 
For the record, and according to Scriptures, Israel {and its few allies} will be So outnumbered and outgunned, that it will be generally recognized by All combatants, that the Only reason why Israel prevailed,{albeit, after heavy, two-thirds?, losses}, was because, 'The-Powers-That-Be,' Did 'play favorites'!, in the modern-day vernacular.

'Snoop' said: When does common sense kick in and tell you that America has committed an irrational act .... that god would never approve of?
'HoM': The Bible clearly states, in so many words, that mans' 'common sense,' pales in comparison to God's wisdom. It's just that your misappreciation of Bible prophesy, and the mysterious {even to myself} ways how God operates..{including, what He allows to happen!?}, that makes you {ah-hem} pissed!

'Snoop': Please don't even think of convincing me that God is smiling down on us/israel is we rape and murder god's creations - out of greed for land.
'HoM': I personally don't care if I convince Anyone! We Both have to admit though, when it comes to people's differing perceptions, {ie. 'freedom-fighter', vs. 'terrorist' analogy, for starters}, that, "God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform." Also, "For now we see {understand} through a glass darkly; but the day shall come when we shall see Him..{including, implied, increased understanding}, face-to-face"!!..

'HoM's reply: As far as I, and many others are concerned, God Does 'make it clearly understood' Re. Israel's re-establishment as a nation, in the 'end times,' {or days}.
 
Right, But God said HE would re-establish Israel, so you don't know when that would be. So no, humans do not have the right to "Play God". And if it is your true belief that God really DOES approve these incredibly inhumane acts by humans unto eachother, than all I can say is, Chritianity is the religion of terrorism. And I really mean that. However, that is not true, it is warped CHRISTAINS that try to interpret God's word and god's intentions to suit themselves, with no regard to human life - God's creations, whatsoever.
 
Please! do not even try to convince me, that is what God "wants", or that those actions are CHRISTIAN actions. Remember what Jesus said, "All Children are God's children" - meaning,,, don't be prejudiced. All of God's people have rights, including the ones christians have been taught to hate (by other humans)
 
 

..As I indicated in my last reply, history IS subjective, to one degree or another; sometimes even with diametrically opposing views!; what might be "murder and stealing" to you for example, {depending on the case at hand}, might strike myself and other like-minded observers, as "fatal violence" or "killing," and the 'spoils' that come from having won multi-consecutive wars!
 
I see. So all of these muslim Palestinians that have title to their land and home should not be upset in the least that zionists stole it from them. It is, after all, how you interpret God's intentions. Great!! What a religion!! And you wonder why muslims hate the christians and jews? I don't.
 
Please NOTE: GOD never told anyone he approved of those actions in order to achieve the re-establishment of Israel, that is just a silly-arse rumor being spoken bodacioulsy by Christians and Jews. Everyone with common sense knows, this is NOT how God wants humans to behave. And christians/Jews should NOT put words in God's mouth, or attempt to fulfill his prophecies.
 

.. It Should be noted, that had the Arab Palestinians, etc. accepted the "U.N" {sponsored} mandate of 1948 {I believe}, the Palestinian Arabs would've had about 50% of then "Palestine," including, half of Jerusalem! -- The fact that they {the Arabs} wouldn't even accept that 'UN' solution at the time, as 'Not good enough,' and then proceded to lose the '48-49' 'War of {Israeli} Independence' {for starters}, and now you want to literally 'turn back history' {including their '67 defeat}, and have the world believe that what was Not 'good enough' {Re. borders} for the Palestinian Arabs, in 1948, and-or, pre-1967, is Now acceptable to you{!?}
 
#1: Why, oh why should the palestinains accept a proposal by white eurpoean christians of the UN to give up half their land, would you tell me that? If the Arab League of Nations voteded to cut the US in half so the Kurds could have a homeland, would you think this is Ok?? Legal?? I doubt it! Because it isn't. How positively white of the UN, BTW, to give SOMEONE elses land away! wonderful. And how has that worked out??? It set the stage for WWIII, and GOd is on the muslim's side.
 
Also, you forget that Israel DID agree to that partitioning of Palestine, yet the ink was not even dry on the agreement when zionist terrorist groups were pushing 700,000 muslims (only) out of about 420 towns and villages in what - according to the agreement that Ben Gurion signed, was clearly MANDATED palestine. That is what caused the '48 war. The Palestinians had no army, they were getting slaughtered. Other muslim nations came in only to stop the carnage. But you didn't know that, did you? American media makes it look like the Palestinains attacked the Jews LOL! please. There were some 500,000 refuge european jews arriving in the levant at that time, and the Zionists said, "Lets get homes for them". Nice, huh? BTW, since the UN did not force the zionists out of mandated Palestine, that left only the Palestinian's neighbors to enforce UN law. that is kind of like doing God's work, no? I mean, it was clearly Ok for the US/UN forces to get Iraq out of Kuwait, wasn't it? What's the difference? This idea christians have of "supremacy by religion" has to GO! This is NOT what god ever intended.


.. I'll admit, that the Arabs have their Own version of "chutzpah," by repeatedly losing wars that they started..{even if the last war was indecisive}, and then making demands, as if they had won a war{!?}
 
The palestinians had no army, how could they ever win? The zionists started it - just for land. I know that is not how the story was spun in american media, so I can half understand your biass. But tell me, do you really think that the palestinians wanted to attack the zionists with sticks and shovels or something?
 
 
"SnoopDog," said: I am "INFLUENCED" by common sense. Murder is wrong, theft is wrong, and if you want to dance your way around that, go ahead.
{'HoMs': I'm not "dancing around" Anything{!}.. Yes, we're All supposedly 'dead-set' against "murder" and "theft"/"stealing"; but in real-world terms, try reconciling that otherwise logical statement, with the pervasive belief that both sides in Any {historical} conflict adhere to, as in.. "One mans' terrorist, is another mans' 'freedom-fighter'"
 
Exactly right, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter." Who is fighting for freedom, the thief zionists or the palestinians the zionists have had locked up in refugee camps for the last 50 years?

..Just out of curiousity, "Snoop"; are 'suicide-bombers' {of which the Arabs have an overwhelming monopoly on}, "terrorists," or "freedom-fighters" in your opinion? ..
 
Freedom fighters. They wish they had some benevolent country, like the US, that would give them advanced munitions, jets, tanks, helicopters etc, but in lieu of that, they must fight, so they fight any way they can. You have to admit, the UN and zionists backed them up to the wall, it is not their fault.
 
 
And what if the victims of a 'suicide-bomber' are All civilians{?}.. provided that they're all Israelis, does that make it "murder," or merely the "killing" and maiming of 'the enemy'?! {Just wondering, what your answer on this, is}.
 
The civillians are not INNOCENT. they are trespassing, holding on to other people's homes, they won't leave, and they all KNOW it. and all Israeli Jews - including the citizens, belong to the IAF by law, anyway.
 
You seem to have no problem with zionists stealing from the Palestinians as some sort of "right", ie, keeping the spoils of war (despite that being against UN law, which Israel is a member), so I guess it must be universally right for all people, including the palestinains to do. So why is everyone so upset with the palestinians? It is not THEY who marched men, women and children off to refugee camps. It was the zionists, under the influence of Satan, I am sure.
 
See the chaos you can have when you do not enforce LAWS?? The laws I mean are the ones like the UN law that says that NO nation can acquire land by an act of war; and, the two UN resolutions telling Israel to get out of the occupied teritories (un Res #'s 224, 338). The people in the ME rightly reason, if it is permissable by the UN for the zionists to do occupy other people's lands, why can't Iraq, as an example, occupy Kuwait?
 
Oh, I forgot,,,,, God gave the zionists special permission to break the law, but never the muslims! It says that in the bible if you interpret it "correctly". [ROLLS EYES] So sorry! LOL! And you wonder why the mulsims look DOWN on the zionists and christians?
 
"SnoopDog,": of course, I too, believe anyone has the right to self defense. So why do you prosecute {persecute?} the muslims in palestine? God gives them the right to defend that which is theirs.
 
.. The 'Muslims-in-Palestine' don't need my 'stamp-of-approval' in order to go about 'doing-their-thing'; in fact, if they didn't, they would be failing to 'set-the-stage' {if you will}, for the coming {Biblically} prophesied tumult and conflagrations, that is already in its middle-stages!
 
At some point, you have to stop viewing all of this as a biblical happening and understand that human laws have to kick in. otherwise, you have the chaos of two religious groups, each trying to be superior over the other. Not to mention, it gives christianity a bad name.
 
 
'Snoop' said: When does common sense kick in and tell you that America has committed an irrational act .... that god would never approve of?
'HoM': The Bible clearly states, in so many words, that mans' 'common sense,' pales in comparison to God's wisdom. It's just that your misappreciation of Bible prophesy, and the mysterious {even to myself} ways how God operates..{including, what He allows to happen!?}, that makes you {ah-hem} pissed!
 
 
Not at all. what p!sses me off, is that God has clearly stated that it is wrong to steal and kill, and human laws say the same thing. Christians and zionists (not to be confued with Jews) think it is their providence to break god's laws, under the guise that they interpret the bible that way. Sure. And people in this country think all the whacko religious nuts are muslims LOL! please.
 
 
'Snoop': Please don't even think of convincing me that God is smiling down on us/israel is we rape and murder god's creations - out of greed for land.
 
'HoM': I personally don't care if I convince Anyone! We Both have to admit though, when it comes to people's differing perceptions, {ie. 'freedom-fighter', vs. 'terrorist' analogy, for starters}, that, "God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform." Also, "For now we see {understand} through a glass darkly; but the day shall come when we shall see Him..{including, implied, increased understanding}, face-to-face"!!..
 
I'm certainly not afraid. I believe I am accepting God's word LITERALLY.
 

BAMMM!!!
 
 
That was the longest, coherent rebuttal i have seen on this site in along while. Usually Gammas posts are so cut and pasted ly long no one can respond to all the crap in them. I am impressed, well done!
 
GammA? the balls in your court.
 
D

DOORMAN: "The ball's in {my} court"?! ..I would think that given the exchange of views you're referring to; Much More to the point, is that.. 'the Bomb' is metaphorically in 'SnoopDog's vest'{!}.. or is it, his pants?!; assuming he's not wearing a vest?!
 
The fact "DOORMAN," that you're "impressed" by 'Snoop's rebuttles, is merely a microchasm of how much of the world-at-large views this same conundrum, that the Bible prophetically spoke of!
When the numerical odds, whether it be world opinion, or actual numbers of people, are as stacked against Israel, as it relates to the Real world; I'd mention to you, that the Tri-une God finds it fitting, {according to, Ezekiel 36-thru-39, inclusive; not just chapter 38}, to ultimately glorify & reveal Himself to the world-at-large, when the {human} odds are quite daunting; but I certainly wouldn't expect you, {among others} to understand!
 
It would be sort of like handing you a class textbook from some Christian theological seminary, {doesn't matter, what post-college grade-level}, and expecting you to 'get it'!

 
 
Yea i guess your right there.
 
D

Why thank you, D'man!
 
But I have a feeling this debate will go on forever.
niether of us will give an inch, as per usual
 
Oh, and Nimzo,, nice contribution.
 
as per your usual, if you ain't complaing about some lame chessplayer in here, you have nothing to say.
 
the irony is, you think no one cares about this debate, but they DO care about your petty b'yeotching.

HallofMirrors,,,
 
Have you ever tried to argue with a liberal that the constituion does INDEED give Amercians the right to bare arms....? Or that the constitution does NOT give women the right to abortion on demand?
 
some things are quite obvious to objective people,,, and when somone goes into denial over an issue because they don't like the result of truth, I kinda' look at it as being very juvenile. and there is no way to "win" an argument with such people.
 
same applies to this debate.
 
you interpret the bible (constituion) to suit your needs, not look at it truthfully. Face it, the Christian God is never going to smile on any group of people reigning carnage on another group of people to get thier land, just because they think they are special (god's people) and everyone else is cannon fodder - even according to God.
 
remember christ's words, "All children are God's children".
 
go in peace.
 
Snoop

'SnoopDog' said: some things are quite obvious to objective people, and when somone goes into denial over an issue because they don't like the result of truth, I kinda' look at it as being very juvenile, and there is no way to "win" an argument with such people.
 
'HoM' replies: Strange that you would lay on me, charges that you yourself, are even more obnoxiously guilty of{!?} -- It was about 56 or so, hours ago, that you admitted {'Snoop'} to my posed question, that suicide bombers are "freedom-fighters," as far as you're concerned; even if all of the casualties are {Israeli} civilian; 'since they all {ultimately}, can be mobilized to serve as {Israeli}, military-personnel anyway.'-- That sounds pretty blood-thirsty, judgemental and indiscriminate, to me!..{and others}, and All as a result of you going into your own type of *truth-denial*, that Israel is Not here to stay!?
 
Who is one to believe, 'SnoopDog,' or "Ezekiel" 'of old.'?! {rhetorical}

'SnoopDog' said: You interpret the bible to suit your needs, not look at it truthfully. Face it, the Christian God is never going to smile on any group of people reigning carnage on another group of people to get their land, just because they think they are special {god's people} and everyone else is cannon fodder - even according to God.
 
'HoM's reply: I don't relish being the first one to break it to you 'Snoop'.. but God periodically {if infrequently}, permits carnage {including, of the seemingly "innocent"}, and land-grabbing, to be done in His name, and by His people {Israel}, if, in God's Mind, it will serve a 'Greater Purpose' of letting 'the House-of-Israel' know, {both in, finality, and in No uncertain terms}, that "Yeshua" the promised 'O.T.' {Jewish} Messiah, and Jesus Christ.. Are Not only One-and-the-Same Person,
but the Messiah, who was long ago {cruelly} rejected, by His own people.
 
I know that this 'news' doesn't conform to your idea, Re. what God/'JC' is all about; and although I'm unable to cite, 'chapter & verse' from the Old Testament, of God, both ordering & condoning the slaughter of {non-Israeli} men, women & children; suffice it to say, that "grevillea" has mentioned or alluded to, that {true} fact, several times; as part of his 'beef' with the {fictitious, to his mind}, 'God-of-the-Bible.'!
 
I have to admit, that I don't understand these condoned & ordered by God, Old Testament slaughters, either{!?}.. at Least Not beyond the fact, that God used these victims, to serve His 'Greater Purpose'{!}; and similar perhaps, to how You feel victimized, in the here-and-now!;
the difference being, that You blame the "Israeli Zionists," for your grievances; when in fact, {as in, Truth is sometimes 'stranger-than-fiction'!}, the modern-day Israelis, are {from your standpoint}, proverbally giving you, the-'Mother-of-All'-Shafts.. but, {presently} unbeknownst to yourself & others}, the Israelis are currently in conflict with the Arab Palestinians, at God's/JC's, behest; ie. with His approval; as in, the present harsh {to you, & other Palestinians} condition, means.. serving the purpose, for God's Greater {'End-Times'} Ends.
 
I realize, that this makes No Sense to you, {among others} whatsoever!.. and truth be known, I only understand it, from the 'God-works-in- mysterious-ways' standpoint; which still leaves a lot of room, Even for My Own, unanswered questions.. of which, we All will Always have some!

'SnoopDog' said: some things are quite obvious to objective people, and when somone goes into denial over an issue because they don't like the result of truth, I kinda' look at it as being very juvenile, and there is no way to "win" an argument with such people.

'HoM' replies: Strange that you would lay on me, charges that you yourself, are even more obnoxiously guilty of{!?} -- It was about 56 or so, hours ago, that you admitted {'Snoop'} to my posed question, that suicide bombers are "freedom-fighters," as far as you're concerned; even if all of the casualties are {Israeli} civilian; 'since they all {ultimately}, can be mobilized to serve as {Israeli}, military-personnel anyway.'-- That sounds pretty blood-thirsty, judgemental and indiscriminate, to me!..{and others}, and All as a result of you going into your own type of *truth-denial*, that Israel is Not here to stay!?
 
Well, #1, since Zionists moved in and illegally encroached on the Palestinian's lands and stole their homes, I'd say that fighting to get out of the squalid refugee camps they were subsequently marched off to, is not only the Palestinian's right, but they would be fools not to do so. Remember, millions of Palestinaian refugees are held up in camps in Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and elsewhere and they really need their freedom from the despicable way of life they are forceed to live. If you don't call that fighting for freedom, I really don't know what qualifies.
 
#2 you may think of this is bloodthirsty, but please remember, you weren't calling it bloodthirsty when the Israelis were performing their ethnic cleansing on a Palestinian civilian population of innocent men, women and children (they had no army). And, besides, who leads in the "killing of innocent civilains" department, anyway...? you know it is Israel by a long shot. But somehow to you, this is not "bloodthristy"?
 
And my belief that Israel is NOT here for the long term is only conjecture. I can't fortell the future.
 
You say that the zionists are only fullfilling God's Prophecy, but God has told the Muslims that they have a right to Holy Jihad under extreme circumstances. and it is VERY extreme there now.
 
Sorry, I cannot feel sorry for the zionists, they brought it on themselves. you and I would do the same thing the Palestinians are doing if we were held captive in refugee camps our whole lives, too.
 
Who is one to believe, 'SnoopDog,' or "Ezekiel" 'of old.'?! {rhetorical}
 
'SnoopDog' said: You interpret the bible to suit your needs, not look at it truthfully. Face it, the Christian God is never going to smile on any group of people reigning carnage on another group of people to get their land, just because they think they are special {god's people} and everyone else is cannon fodder - even according to God.

'HoM's reply: I don't relish being the first one to break it to you 'Snoop'.. but God periodically {if infrequently}, permits carnage {including, of the seemingly "innocent"}, and land-grabbing, to be done in His name, and by His people {Israel}, if, in God's Mind, it will serve a 'Greater Purpose' of letting 'the House-of-Israel' know, {both in, finality, and in No uncertain terms}, that "Yeshua" the promised 'O.T.' {Jewish} Messiah, and Jesus Christ.. Are Not only One-and-the-Same Person, but the Messiah, who was long ago {cruelly} rejected, by His own people.
 
Fine. Now, how do you know God is not permitting "other people" to do the same thing to the Zionists? - or is it only a Jewish/Christian right to wipe out other civilizations? Any religion that espouses a "God" that allows his CHOSEN people to kill "LESSER" people indescriminatley is not really a God I wish to ever be a part of. Nor do I believe, however, that is the case. Go back to your original post... show me where God gives anyone permission to fulfill His prophecy. You're so certain that God did just that yet you have no evidence at all. For all you know, God is inspiring the Muslims to wipe out Israel. You don't know and neither do I because God never said. So in the meantime, we have to use the COMMON SENSE that God gave us.
 
I know that this 'news' doesn't conform to your idea, Re. what God/'JC' is all about; and although I'm unable to cite, 'chapter & verse' from the Old Testament, of God, both ordering & condoning the slaughter of {non-Israeli} men, women & children; suffice it to say, that "grevillea" has mentioned or alluded to, that {true} fact, several times; as part of his 'beef' with the {fictitious, to his mind}, 'God-of-the-Bible.'!
 
Fine. All I want to know is,,, did God order it HERE and NOW? or are you just guessing he did for convenience? Again, grevillia is right to raise that as an issue because the chritian religion surley looks like a religion to hate ALL but christians and maybe Jews. NO way around it. And you call that a religion...? And people in this country think that the Muslim faith is barbaric LOL! Tell me, was 9.11 God's work, then?
 
 

I have to admit, that I don't understand these condoned & ordered by God, Old Testament slaughters, either{!?}.. at Least Not beyond the fact, that God used these victims, to serve His 'Greater Purpose'{!}; and similar perhaps, to how You feel victimized, in the here-and-now!;
the difference being, that You blame the "Israeli Zionists," for your grievances; when in fact, {as in, Truth is sometimes 'stranger-than-fiction'!}, the modern-day Israelis, are {from your standpoint}, proverbally giving you, the-'Mother-of-All'-Shafts.. but, {presently} unbeknownst to yourself & others}, the Israelis are currently in conflict with the Arab Palestinians, at God's/JC's, behest; ie. with His approval; as in, the present harsh {to you, & other Palestinians} condition, means.. serving the purpose, for God's Greater {'End-Times'} Ends.
 
"at God's/JC's, behest" - I see. Of course, I DON'T see at all ..... unless you show me documentation that states God's intentions here. Showing God said that it will come to past, does not mean he wants it to happen, He just refuses to stop the inevitable, for whatever reason. I bet if humans interfered with this process on behalf of God, that would probably make God very happy. Make sense?

I realize, that this makes No Sense to you, {among others} whatsoever!.. and truth be known, I only understand it, from the 'God-works-in- mysterious-ways' standpoint; which still leaves a lot of room, Even for My Own, unanswered questions.. of which, we All will Always have some!
 
And that is fine, if you really believe that. Of course, God would be working in strange ways, too, if he laid a nuclear bomb on Tel Aviv. And I am sure you will embrace that action as God's work when it finally happens (to avoid hypocracy). I know I will becaus e it is God's will. Make sense?
 
 
PS: the above last line needed editing and clarification. as peviously written it could be construed that "I hope" meant - I hope that it would end with a nuke bomb, which is not at all what I intended.
 
sorry for the unintended wrongful statement.