Hi there
 
My "false doctrine" of those who choose to reject Jesus simply ceasing to exist has been called into question time and time again.
 
Some need there to be an eternal damnation, especially for the arguments of one specific individual to hold fast. For without an eternal damnation they are left starting directly into the face of an almighty Father who loves them very much. So much so, in fact, that He Himself laid His very life down so that we might have life.
 
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
They argue that forever must be eternal despite the verses available to the contrary. However if you were to build a house with only one wall how long would you be able to rely on it's stability? Building an argument upon one point will face the same fate as is sure to be unfolded within future posts on this new topic.
 
Some call it into question because they somehow believe that a just a loving Father in Heaven will need to punish them forever and always for their disobedience. No matter, that not being able to spend time and eternity with eternal life where there is no death or sin is indeed a punishment in and of itself. Nope, that is not good enough for them, they need the punishment to be eternal so that they can scare people into following God. God's position on this?
 
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
God loves the whole world, not just those who follow Him. It would indeed be a contradiction for a loving Savior to make the disobedient burn for all eternity as a result of their choices. What love is in that? Surely the above verse is in contradiction to that very concept. However, I believe there are some here that could explain where the concept of eternal damnation originated if they had enough tanacity and guts to do so.
 
Some simple say nothing, either not knowing what to say or unsure of how the truth should unfold. Perhaps they rationalize that if they ignore the conversation it will somehow go away. These are the same who have conjectured that if they ignore IBIJ He Himself will vanish which for years simply was not the case. Only be the generosity of a fellow Caissian do I remain. Never the less, God's Word and love for each of us will never end.
 
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
God has 3 choices that I can see.
 
1. Force those who reject Him to live with Him despite their choices throughout all eternity... that's not love.
 
2. Burn those who reject Him for all eternity... that's not love.
 
3. The only possible loving action for a God who loves the whole world is to allow those who choose not to follow Him to cease to exist not because of His choice, but because of theirs.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

Shamelessly moving this one back to the top.
 
I was hoping for a conversation, but alas perhaps there is none to be had.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

We have had the conversation. There is nothing left to be said. The Bible says that hell is forever. You won't accept that fact.

But your making your position upon 1 single point. Not even a court of law would make a case stick with only 1 single point. Especially if it can be proven that a word (ie forever) can bare more than one definition.
 
Consider the following verse and others like it...
 
John 5:29
and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
 
Two very distinctive options.
1. Rise to live
2. Rise to be condemned
 
To live and to be condemned are certainly different descriptive words are they not?
 
There are more verses like this to be had too.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

That quote would help make grevillea's point, not yours. Good thing you aren't a lawyer.
 
--SoCo

Hi SC
 
Please explain?
 
If a building it condemned it is either put through massive repairs or torn down altogether, with the later being the norm. In either case it ceases to exist in the form for which it had been.
 
Therefore, I would be very interested in hearing how that verse supports anything other than ceasing to exist?
 
While your at it, here are a couple more to wrestle with.
 
Malachi 4:2-3
2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty.
 
? Where are the righteous?
? Where are the wicked?
If you are surmising that they will go on forever as ashes then in that sense I would agree with you, though most ashes I look at really don't have much life left in them. Take the current fire at Universal Studio's for example... how many people are going to continue through those exact exhibits in the days ahead? Painfully few I would say, cepting those interested in looking at the utter results of devestation.
 
Revelation 20:4-6 (Really, the whole 4th verse is very good, but I'm trying to cut to the main points.)
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 
? Who is coming to life?
? Who would be the "rest of the dead"
It is not difficult to understand Scripture when one chooses to read it for exactly what it says.
 
Revelation 20:7-9
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
 
? Are these the same 1000 years spoken of in the Rev 20:4-6? If not, please explain these 1000 years given that these verses follow directly on the heals of the previous ones.
? Where is Satan drawing His powerful force from?
? What happened to those who attempted to make war on the city of Jerusalem?
? What does the word "devoured" mean to you?
Yes the Scriptures talk about "forever" but they also talk about "devoured" and "condemned" and "second death". To accept the meaning of "forever" to be eternal is to ignore these other very telling words that Scripture also uses quite frequently.
 
Never-the-less, I would be very interested in hearing more from those who would consider the words above to be some type of false doctrine. Strange how Hmmm and GP13 are painfully silent in this, oh that's right there busy trying to get a spiritless body to heaven through evidance within God's Holy Word. They've only been working on that one for over a year now, I would surmise. Unless, of course, they gave up altogether and ignored the challenge. If I were a gambling man, I'd bet they headed the direction of that second option.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

To, 'IBIJ,' Lest I get into a virtual 'graduate-course' in plumbing the 'whys-and-wherefores' of Scripture; of which, even theologians can't fully agree on their meaning in more than a few unrelated instances; just to 'shoot down' your first Non-Scripture argument; and presumably, important point to yourself, 'IBIJ'; otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it, 'numero uno'!
 
.. You started your last post, with: "If a building is condemned, it is either put through massive repairs or torn down altogether, with the later {sic} being the norm. In either case it ceases to exist in the form for which it had been. -- Therefore, I would be very interested in hearing how that verse supports anything other than ceasing to exist?"
 
 
.. Assuming for the sake of argument, 'IBIJ,' that we All Do, have an "eternal soul"; one of whose main functions, reportedly, is to animate {as in, everday motions} our outer physical exteriors; if you can agree then, that this, {Not-so} hypothetical, "eternal soul" of ours..{made more complicated, by our differing 'Christian' belief-systems}, in All likelihood, IS Powered {if you will}, by something Other than a {physical} 'beating heart'; If, like I say, you can manage to envision, that small though important and logical, concession; then I've already 'shot down' your first listed {if Non-Scriptural} argument!.. ie.{quoting, yourself}.. "The building.. {drawing a human body analogy}, "ceases to exist, in the form which it had been." -- I have to assume that it's because you're 'hide-bound' and beholden to, 'SDA' doctrine/Scripture Interpretation, 'IBIJ'; that you are unable to appreciate the fact that just because something "changes form," especially, as it regards Our Human Bodies; it does Not mean, it "ceases to exist"!
 
.. What's the difference between the corpse of a dead person lying in a casket, and that Same person, hours.. even minutes earlier, before they "died"? You wouldn't suppose it has to do with the "eternal soul" of that person; as in, the electricity, that coursed continuously through their bodies, {remember, my earlier, "electro-cardiogram," as in heart, and electro-
encephlogram{sp?}..as in, human brain, references/electrical readings?!}
 
.. Since energy {electricity, in this case} cannot be destroyed; for you to definitively prove {to everyone's satisfaction}, that the same electrical field {we're talking 'science' here; which, just like Scripture, God is Also the 'author' of!}, that once coursed, through That Same.. now dead person's, body or corpse; did Not..{according to you} assume many of the same characteristics of the departed person's, in question, psyche {if you will}, but, this time.. in an unseen {to us} dimension. {Remember, our 5 senses, take in only a small part of the electro-magnetic {energy} spectrum!}. -- Ergo, just because some of your {ours} "dead" loved ones are "out-of-sight," does Not mean, that they are also, "out-of {our} mind{s}" .. as in, "ceases to exist"!
 
.. Too much "Twilight-Zone" and "Star-Trekkish" suppositions {actually, Facts}, for you, 'IBIJ'? .. Wasn't, by-the-same-token,' "Copernicus" {of old} once pilloried, by the Roman Catholic Church, of his Medieval Age, for pointing out that the Earth was Not the center of our solar-system, upon which, up til then, it was even religious dogma, that it was?! {rhetorical}
 
.. Could your church, the 'SDA,' {for short}, be the modern-day equivalent, of the Medieval, and largely European, 'RC' Church, in the way you seem to {by-default}, confuse, 'Sci-Fi,' with rather long established, science-fact?! {rhetorical}

Hi Hmmmm
 
This is actually my second response to you as the last one was lost due to running out of time with the newer MISC BB system. I liked it before, when even if one exceeds time they still were able to post their writings. Oh well, nothing stays the same including science except of course for God Himself.
 
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
 
You brought up several excellent points, that I believe are worthy of a second writing, thus here we go.
 
YOU SAID:
otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it, 'numero uno'!
 
MY RESPONSE:
Actually if you study the art of oratory you will find that it is best to deliver your strongest point last rather than first.
 
YOU SAID:
Assuming for the sake of argument, 'IBIJ,' that we All Do, have an "eternal soul";
 
MY RESPONSE:
How can we assume such a thing when it directly goes against God’s Word?
 
GOD’s WORD:
Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Should I write Paul and say I’ve found someone who does exactly that?
 
YOU SAID:
if you can agree then, that this, {Not-so} hypothetical, "eternal soul" of ours
 
GOD’s WORD:
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Time to make a choice.
 
1. The word of Hmmmm says we have an eternal soul.
2. The Word of God says we will receive an eternal soul when the above event takes place.
 
Who should I believe? Tough choice, but I think I’ll stick with the Word of God on this one.
 
YOU SAID:
then I've already 'shot down' your first listed {if Non-Scriptural} argument!..
 
MY RESPONSE:
I love Prepositional logic. If this then this… it’s really so crystal clear. Of course, to use such logic one must open themselves up to the converse which looks like this… “If not this then not this”. And in this case that would look like this…
 
GOD’s WORD:
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
 
MY RESPONSE:
Our loving Savior who created us to live warned us that we would die if we disobeyed. How is it that you have been able to erase this concept and get us back to eternal life without the final restoration?
 
YOU SAID:
I have to assume that it's because you're 'hide-bound' and beholden to, 'SDA' doctrine/Scripture Interpretation, 'IBIJ'; that you are unable to appreciate the fact that just because something "changes form," especially, as it regards Our Human Bodies; it does Not mean, it "ceases to exist"!
 
MY RESPONSE:
You know, I have to agree with you on this one.
 
GOD’s WORD:
Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty.
 
MY RESPONSE:
An ash doesn’t cease to exist. Silly me. I’m just not sure how much intelligence remains within it, are you?
 
YOU SAID:
.. What's the difference between the corpse of a dead person lying in a casket, and that Same person, hours.. even minutes earlier, before they "died"? You wouldn't suppose it has to do with the "eternal soul"
 
MY RESPONSE:
Your correct again…
 
GOD’s WORD:
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I indeed wouldn’t suppose that, especially since that is not what Scripture teaches. The difference is that at one point they are living while at the other point they are dead. This really is not “rocket science”.
 
YOU SAID:
Ergo, just because some of your {ours} "dead" loved ones are "out-of-sight," does Not mean, that they are also, "out-of {our} mind{s}" .. as in, "ceases to exist"!
 
MY RESPONSE:
From you’re above statement, can I surmise that since I remember my dead wife you are purporting that she continues to exist? What then would you do with Scripture like…
 
GOD’s WORD:
1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
 
And…
 
John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
 
MY RESPONSE:
It would seem to me that the two above events show a very physical body resurrection of Christ, no? If He is the firstfruit of what is to come wouldn’t we be raised in the same way which He was?
 
YOU SAID:
.. Too much "Twilight-Zone" and "Star-Trekkish" suppositions {actually, Facts}, for you, 'IBIJ'? .. Wasn't, by-the-same-token,' "Copernicus" {of old} once pilloried, by the Roman Catholic Church, of his Medieval Age, for pointing out that the Earth was Not the center of our solar-system, upon which, up til then, it was even religious dogma, that it was?! {rhetorical}
 
MY RESPONSE:
Don’t get me started down this trail, or GP13 might find it necessary to get involved. However, don’t forget Galileo’s argument for a round earth which put him under house arrest by the same body of people for which you speak about above.
 
YOU SAID:
.. Could your church, the 'SDA,' {for short}, be the modern-day equivalent, of the Medieval, and largely European, 'RC' Church, in the way you seem to {by-default}, confuse, 'Sci-Fi,' with rather long established, science-fact?! {rhetorical}
 
MY RESPONSE:
I’m to busy rolling on the floor with hysterical laughter to respond at this moment. You really ought to consider a career in comedy when you can craft such outlandish humor as this last statement of yours.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

To, 'IBIJ,' I'm Not going to give a 'point-by-point' refutation, {or attempted refutation, in your last post}, because, #1. The Scriptures themselves, are.. in more than a few cases, open to {apparently} honest disagreements, as to what the passages {taken collectively} Really Mean{!?}
 
For example, I take it that.. at Least according to 'Mainstream' Christian believer, understanding; that you're confusing our future 'glorified bodies,' {as first demonstrated, in the Old Testament's "Mount of Transfiguration," experience} with our disembodied spirits, {half the time, referred to.. interchangeably, as "souls"}. See, the following 'copy & paste' Scripture reference, that comes after the parenthetical, introduction.
 
{The following passage in the book of Revelation is often cited as confirmation, of the belief that people are created with an immortal soul, that survives in a conscious state after death} --
 
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
.. These "martyrs" are referred to in "Revelations," in a post {physical} death setting, yet Prior to receiving their {completed} glorified bodies; of which 'JC' was the 'firstfruits' of possessing; and Not, as you would have people believe, the "firstfruit" of having Any type of conciousness, and-or 'body'; whether it be a disembodied spirit; having the general form of a body, as in a, 'now you see it, now you don't,' "ghost"; or what you are referring to, {perhaps, without realizing it}, our future {in-waiting} glorified bodies!
 
.. Knowing your penchant for trying to make Your Own naysayers, to appear as ill-informed, ignoramuses; I expect you to mostly ignore my "Revelations" chapter, deceased saints 'under-the-altar' reference; in preference {perhaps}, to acting like the term, {future-state} "glorified bodies" of believers, is somehow not supported by the Scriptures{!?}
 
.. Actually, I don't Know that that will be your next counter-argument, for a fact; since, trying to anticipate your next reaction to what I came up with, {supported, by the Scriptures}, is like stating what the weather will be like, 10 days, hence!
 
Ps. If you haven't figured it out already, 'IBIJ,' {as I, and others have}, these Bible arguments are Both circular, repetitive, and doubtlessly unending; at Least until the Lord Himself decides to settle All of these inter-denominational, Christian-believer Bible interpretations!
If there's anything positive to say about these differences; it would be that, to Many believers' minds {whether or not, you agree} it's that these Scripture-interpretation differences,{since even the 'SDA's have their own 'take-on-things'!}, does Not bear directly on what it takes to be 'Saved'! {see, Jn. 3:16}.. even if that verse, by itself; has a taking a bath, without a washcloth, analogy; maybe even, without the warm water?!

I will try to come back and answer your Revelation quote, but I just found some very telling quotes while working on my next sermon that I thought I would share with all those who take time to read these words.
 
"Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the
darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, are
all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us
with vain terrors."
Seneca
 
"The multitude are restrained from vice by
the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those
terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms
imprint upon their minds"
Strabo, the geographer
 
 
"Since the multitude is ever
fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is
no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the
invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted
judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these
notions of the infernal regions."
Polybius, the ancient historian
 
Other's that supported this toughts include, but are not limited to.
Plato
Dionysius
Livy, the celebrated historian
Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean
Plutarch
Aristotle
 
Hell was invented by men of power who felt it was the only way to hold
the masses of ignorant people under their power.
 
Church position
"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and
gratitude of the saints of heaven."
Jonathan Edwards (A Calvinist of the "Great Awakening")
 
"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more
abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the
damned is granted them."
Thomas Aquinas
 
"Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before
their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes
in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst…"
Jeremy Taylor of the Church of England
 
"Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they
shall feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and
penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken
by the weight of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more
tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors."
John Calvin
 
"When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it,
but at the day of judgment thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt
have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused
with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie,
asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy vein roads for the feet of
pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play
his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable Lament.'''
The Reverend C. H. Spurgeon
 
 
Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you.
He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping.
The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered,
from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make
your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your
body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make
your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body
be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million
of years without stopping?
Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R in his book The Sight of Hell
(A Catholic book for children)

IBIJ
 
Are you switching from your so called true words of God, to quoting poets,historians, Preachers, Philosophers,etc.?
 
Why don't you answer HallofMirrors Revelations quotes?
 
grandpa13

Hi GP13
 
I get chastisied for always using Scripture as my defense, and now that I decided to use secular historians and church leaders I'm being called on the carpet for that?
 
Can't keep nobody happy.
 
Anyways, let's look at the verses Hmmmm put forth, even though he finds clever ways of squriming out of answering mine. Oh well, such is life.
 
GOD's WORD:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Now let's read it for exactly what it says.
 
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls...
 
Pardon me for interupting but what happened to the body, soul, & spirit dialog. Did the rest lose their directions to Heaven? Whatever the case, I continue.
 
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
 
Slain for 2 reasons
1. The Word of God
2. The Testimony
 
Weird how this fits so well with verse like...
 
Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
 
Almost like keeping the commandments of God is equal in importance to keeping the testimony of Jesus. Naw... that can't be the case, I digress.
 
So far we have souls who have kept the Word of God and the testimony of Christ. Let's see what happens...
 
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice...
 
Ahhh, solid proof that these souls must be in Heaven. Alas I would admit my defeat if not for...
 
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
 
Unless, Heaven is the ground it is quite clear where Cain's brother is at in this verse according to the Lord Himself. It just so happens to be in the same place that I have claimed all along as where we go before the resurrection after we die.
 
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
 
Good question they ask. After all, it's been six thousand years, seems to me that's it's about time for something to happen. Certainly the signs of the times for which the days in which we live confirms this point quite clearly for all who would but pay attention.
 
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them....
 
If these are bodiless spirits then why would they need to be given white robes? And if they are alive and in Heaven why in the world has it taken nearly 6 thousand years for this to take place? I know I serve a mighty God, but if that is what you wish to support then I must say His seemstress is certainly a tad tardy.
 
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season...
 
How strange, they were told to rest. Sleep... rest... wait... hold on... I think I'm getting a revelation. Wouldn't sleep and rest be equivalently the same thing in this context?
 
Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;
 
Psalm 90:5
You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-
 
John 11:13
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 
It does appear that resting is indeed kin to sleep just as the Holy Word of God states. You know, the funny thing here is that the NIV version of God's Word was written by Catholicism. Since they do not support such concepts wouldn't it have been best for them to strike them from the books? Praise God, He always wins in the end.
 
Rev 6:11 ...until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Uh oh, GP13. You should have gotten all over Hmmm for preaching doom and gloom. Course, if He's simply sharing what God's Word specifically says that would be an entirely other thing would it not. And these days are what truly do wait in store for people who are as I am. I wish that all were as I am with a vision of the end score victory in Jesus Christ our risen Savior and Lord. It is not to late to repent and turn your lives over to Him. Do it now. Tomorrow will be far to late.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

.. Let me guess, 'IBIJ'; you've been having a 'Bad' 2 weeks, 3 weeks, been over a month now, due to several factors, {pick one; including the option to add the 'several factors' statement}; and your 'fellow believers,' who you've been having long-running disagreements over, on various Bible topics; mostly unrelated to the 'Salvation' message.. {another 'point,' which you would probably take issue with}, are finally 'getting under your skin'!
.. What better way to 'vent' your frustations, than to post a 'Tell-It-Like-It-Is' post, from the 'hard-core' version, of an 'SDA' perspective, {couched, more like an 'ultimatum'!}.
 
.. I guess we can All be thankful, for the 'small things' in 'Life'; which, out of deference to you, I won't elaborate on, further.
 
Ps., As for the lack of a rebuttle this time; even the modern-day Israeli leaders, {to cite another level of discourse}, periodically are known, Not to respond to their 'PLA' opposites; simply due to the.. "What's the Point"!?, rationalization!

Nope, I'm actually having a rather good month; thanks for asking though.
 
As for your non-rebuttal, isn't that the standard MOD for you? Throw a thought in, normally without Scripture and run away with your tail between your legs. Such is certainly your choice, just as not doing so is indeed mine.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

I'm glad you took the time to list other quotes, but I have no intention of reading them, or commenting on them. I commented on the "condemned" quote, so I will explain my original comment and nothing more.
 
You used a condemned building reference, that it is torn down and ceases to exist. True. The condemnation of the building is NOT the act of destroying it, it is the judgement as unfit.
 
To condemn is to sentence to a punishment. As in someone is condemned to hell. If you want to argue that they are condemned to extinction or oblivion, I guess that's ok, but you don't have the bible quotes to support it.
 
Your argument that eternal doesn't equate to forever doesn't follow, and your court of law -one piece of evidence-crap is just drama.
 
If the evidence is a fiber from a glove, sure. If the evidence is you, on video, stabbing someone yelling out your social security number and address, then that is one damning piece of evidence.
 
I'm afraid you are facing the latter.
 
--SoCo

If I were a judge, then SoCo has easily won this debate. Exhibit A...that it says in the Bible that hell is forever,is the end of the matter. We can all go home. It's like a guilty plea and a full confession. No need to construct a case. Nor listen to IBIJ, dredging up quotes and excerpts, which only serve to confuse. Lets face it, IBIJ, and discuss the real issues ; which are [1]. The Bible contradicts itself. It clearly says that hell is forever, but also has enough verses for someone to mount a weak case that hell is not forever. IBIJ, all you have succeeded in doing, is to highlight that the word of God is not clear, nor infallible .Issue [2].God is evil. You need to come to terms with this. It's a man made notion that God is kind. God has priors. Manslaughter, infanticide, murder , burning , pillaging, rape, genocide. He's a monster. It is totally in character for God to burn sinners forever.. A tip. God might not be too pleased with you running around saying that he is a loving father. Ruining his reputation. Why are so desperate to portray God as a caring being. Don't you read the Bible? Do you just read the bits you like? Do you just twist it to suit what you want it to say?

JESUS CHRIST MAN!
You are being alittle harsh are'nt you. My god is not as cruel as you have described. Easy pal or you might be struck by a bolt or something . Although i don't have a book that says you will.
 
D

 Spot on. I say with 100% sincerity that I hope your faith in your God will be rewarded in some way. As you know I am an atheist and right at the other end of the religious spectrum from you, but I hope you will never find me attacking the religious beliefs of the "quiet Christians". I'll put GP13 and several others in that group.It's the likes of IBIJ and Hall of mirrors which bring out the worst in me.Still dodging those bolts. grevillea.

"grevillea," said: "I hope that you will never find me attacking the religious beliefs of the quiet Christians,......"
 
Huh?! .. What about JC's "Great Commission"!? Those 'oddball' prolythesizers aside; who would have you believe that coming into the good graces of God, involves more rules observances than it actually does; and confusing matters of Scriptural Super importance, {to Both, God & man}, ie. the {simple} message of Salvation, with extraneous matters that have almost nothing to do with becoming 'born again'; Leaving those distractions behind; the contradiction-in-terms, of "grevillea's" "quiet Christian" ideal, is at Least, a thousand-fold more ridiculous, than "grevillea" being totally captivated by an important "football" {soccer} game, that.. let's say, went into "overtime," and keeping quiet about it, afterwards.
 
.. I once heard a sermon reference, to the absurdity of people getting 'all excited' {regardless, of the sport involved}, of what happens to a ball that's 'in-play'; yet, when it comes to spiritually connecting up with their Creator, and potential, and-or actual {present} Eternal Savior, {Jesus Christ}; in contrast to a temporal sports event, that.. aside from a collective group of Egos involved, means virtually nothing; it's as if it's time to nod off, for more than a few people, should one happen to mention "God." {!?}
 
.. Since it's 'a given,' that in earthly terms, the commands {orders} that are given by a commanding general, are normally, to be followed; the following "Wikipedia" reference to 'JC's "Great Commission, is no exception to this rule; if anything, since what Jesus {Christ} is talking about, has Non-temporal applications; wouldn't that make it even More important?! {rhetorical}
 
The most familiar version of the Great Commission is depicted in the Gospel of Matthew 28:16-20:
 
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."{NIV}

 
What about it? You started the post with grevillea's quote about not wanting to attack quiet xians, and then went on a tirade about how sports is more important than god, but it shouldn't be.
 
You would be brilliant if only the voices in your head were working with you instead of against you.
 
Here's a clue: READ and respond to what you read.
 
 
There's the quote. What does that have to do with sports? or your bible quote at the end?
 
How did your hero jesus get his disciples? He just asked right? He didn't go down to the docks and keep posting messages on the BB hounding people.
 
He found good people that wanted to follow, and left everyone else alone.
 
Where did he commission the fundy ilk to broadcast their message at all costs to everyone, repeatedly? Find me that bible quote.
 
To many people their faith is something private. Of course, you don't care, you'll stomp all over that for a chance at proving grevillea wrong.
 
 
If the shoe fits...
 
 
--SoCo