For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
 
Here we have two options.
1. Wages of sin = death
2. Gift of God = eternal life
 
According to this verse it's clearly either death or eternal life. How can a person possibly get the idea of burning in hell for all eternity when such verses clearly spell out the truth?
 
I'd especially love to here a direct answer from Hmmmm & GP13 on this one, not to mention my previous post which Hmmmm still has yet to respond to. Makes one wonder if Hmmmm has thus concluded that his arguments are kin to fishing from a sinking boat.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
I see you mentioned my handle in the above post. You have one line from Romans 6. I don't have the slightest idea what you are driving at.
 
I suggest you read all of Romans 6 and then tell me what it is your trying to prove or conjureup.
 
grandpa13

Hi GP13
 
I will do exactly that. The point here is that according to that verse (and countless others) there is no continuance of unrighteous after the earth is made new.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

What about it?

Thus teaching that their is an eternal place of torment where people burn forever is both a deception and a dangerous teaching.
 
Here's another verse to ponder conidering this.
 
10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
 
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
QUESTIONS
* What does the above verse say about believing God?
* How does the above verse say that we receive eternal life.
* According to this verse what is the opposite of eternal life?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
I don't get it, are you starting a Sunday school class? Or should I say a Saturday school class. If you are attempting to become a soul saving prophet, it seems like you are on the wrong web site.
 
I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just saying it as I see it.
 
grandpa13

Hi GP13
 
Is this a MISC BB?
 
How would you define MISC?
 
My topic of choice for MISC is most always based around religion.
 
There are more topics than chess (such as politics) talked about in this MISC section.
 
Given all the above, yes - conversing about topics related to Christianity is indeed what I'm interested in.
 
Further we have both dialoged on this issue many times, so why exactly is it that this suddenly appears to be new ground for you?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
 

IbIJ
 
This isn't new ground. I have told you my position many times, you just ignored my observations and just come back with some self interpreted Bible Quotes as if you had some magic crytal ball that gives you the power to interprete Gods word and the rest of us don't.
 
Why don't you just let go let God and live your life Happy, Joyous, and Free, instead of constantly trying to read misery and doom in Gods word.
 
grandpa13

What you see as misery and doom
I see as hope and blessings
 
This post started out by asking a simple question about a verse in God's Word. I followed that by more verses and more questions.
 
To date, no one has chosen to give a different answer than exactly what God's Word says... given that, I only see one interpretation of God's Word and that being to believe exactly what God's Word says.
 
I welcome any other biblically based interpretation, but none comes forward. Good people do give good thoughts... but since I choose to believe that God's Word means exactly what it says I'll opt to follow God's Word to the best of my ability as compared to man's fanciful good ideas even if that man be myself.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ, it says in the bible that sinners will end up in the lake of fire and be tormented forever . If you keep pushing your heretical views we both might end up there together.

 
Since you say that God's Word says this, may I ask you where exactly God's Word says this?
 
Here's one verse that talks about the lake of fire.
 
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
 
Does it say those who are thrown in to this lake of fire will be tormented for all eternity? Or does it talk about the "second death"? My desire is to die believing God's Word means exactly what it says.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
Tell me about how you achieved this power of interpreting Gods word exactly as it is. It could be an interesting story.
 
As I see it, you interpret Gods word as you percieve it to be, in order
to fit your agenda.
 
grandpa13

Hi GP13
 
Let's try something.
 
1. Choose a section of God's Word that you think might be interpreted in more than one way.
 
2. In response I'll attempt to demonstrate how God's Holy Word interprets the very Scriptures that you put forth since the only relevant form of interpretation available is to believe that God's Word means exactly what it says. If a particular section of Scripture remains unclear in what it says by simply reading it, then the second approach is to find out what other Scriptures say to clarify that point.
 
So... pick a specific section and we will proceed.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

Unfortunately, I will have to resort to a cut and paste . Even though you have a strong case for your view, this article has an even stronger case for the opposite. Off topic it's another example that the word of your god is open to different interpretations , and even more off topic it shows that your god is a cruel heartless vindictive uncaring character.Fortunately for me and all the other sinners, your god is merely a figment of some ancient mens' delusions, and we won't be ending up in the lake at all. Much to your chagrin. Here is the cut and paste.
Eternal Torment Argument #1:
The Bible specifically describes people being tormented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever:
 
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
 
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
 
These two passages describe the "beast" (the Antichrist), the "false prophet," and all those who receive the "mark of the beast" being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of burning sulfur. Therefore, the Bible specifically describes sinners being tormented for eternity in hell, which provides Scriptural precedent for the view that all sinners will suffer eternal conscious agony in the Lake of Fire.
 
For example, in Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 (above), the apostle John shows us that the Lake of Fire is the place where certain sinners will be tormented forever, and then just five verses later he tells us that all sinners will be cast into that same Lake of Fire:
 
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)
 
Since the Lake of Fire is the place where the beast, the false prophet, etc., will be tormented forever, and since all sinners will be thrown into the same lake of burning sulfur, the most natural and reasonable conclusion is that all sinners will suffer conscious agony in hell for all eternity.
 
 
Eternal Torment Argument #2:
Several Old Testament passages describe the eternal fire of hell in a way which clearly demonstrates the Jewish view that hell is a place of everlasting burning, not a place of annihilation:
 
"The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31)
 
"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)
 
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24)
 
The first two passages above describe sinners burning in unquenchable fire. The imagery here is of eternal torment in fire, not total annihilation. The third passage says that a sinner's "worm" will not die, nor will his fire be quenched. This passage is quoted by Jesus in the New Testament:
 
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48)
 
The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.147) explains this passage by saying that the Greek word geena ("Gehenna," often translated into English as "hell") refers to a site near Jerusalem that "became Jerusalem's refuse dump where fires burned continually to consume regular deposits of worm-infested garbage. In Jewish thought the imagery of fire and worms vividly portrayed the place of future eternal punishment for the wicked. ... The worm (internal torment) and the unquenchable fire (external torment) ... vividly portray the unending, conscious punishment that awaits all who refuse God's salvation. The essence of hell is unending torment and eternal exclusion from His presence." The reason the worm does not die and the fire does not go out is because sinners are never annihilated. They continue to exist forever, and therefore the worm has "food" to eat forever and the fire has fuel to consume forever.
 
 
Eternal Torment Argument #3:
Jesus described hell as a fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but He also described it as a place of darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth:
 
"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:42)
 
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:49-50)
 
"But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12)
 
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" (Matthew 22:13)
 
"And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" (Matthew 25:30)
 
Jude tells us that this "blackest darkness" has been reserved for sinners forever:
 
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
 
Since this blackest darkness has been "reserved forever," it emphasizes the eternal nature of the punishment which sinners will receive.
 
 
Eternal Torment Argument #4:
In the following passage, Jesus makes a direct comparison between the eternal nature of life (for Christians) and the eternal nature of punishment (for sinners):
 
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46)
 
Notice that in each case, the word "eternal" is translated from the same Greek word aionios. The fire is "eternal" (aionios), the punishment is "eternal" (aionios), and the life is "eternal" (aionios). The implication is that a Christian's life will go on forever, the fires of hell will go on forever, and a sinner's punishment will go on forever.
 
 
Eternal Torment Argument #5:
Hell (the Lake of Fire) is never described as being temporary. Instead, the eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout Scripture:
 
"The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31)
 
"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)
 
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24)
 
"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)
 
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8)
 
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)
 
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)
 
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48)
 
"His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:17)
 
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
 
"instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2)
 
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
 
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
 
"He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10-11)
 
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
 
The eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout the Bible. Why is hell eternal? Why will the fires of hell burn forever? The purpose of hell is for the punishment of sinners, so if the fires of hell never go out then it must mean that the punishment of sinners will never end. If sinners were all annihilated in hell then at some point the fire would no longer have any "fuel" and would no longer be needed, so it would go out. However, hell is never described as being temporary. There is not a single passage of Scripture that specifically describes any sinners being totally annihilated, but there are passages which specifically describe sinners suffering agony forever, as we saw earlier.
 
 
Conclusion
 
For all of the above reasons I can only conclude that hell is a place of eternal, fiery, conscious agony where sinners will be shut out from the presence of God forever. I would much prefer to believe that sinners will receive a temporary punishment in hell (perhaps based on the extent and magnitude of their sins) before being put out of their misery by being annihilated. However, I can't find any justification at all in Scripture for that view, and therefore I must discard it. I believe that God is infinitely and perfectly fair, and therefore whatever punishment sinners receive will be perfectly fair and we will have no cause to accuse God of being unfair in any way.
 
There is, however, another view which is sometimes called "Ultimate Reconciliation" or "Universal Salvation" or simply "Universalism." The basic idea is that sinners will not spend eternity in hell, nor will they be annihilated. Instead, every person who ever lived will ultimately receive salvation, even if they have to spend a period of time suffering in hell. Those who hold this view argue that the Greek words which are translated as "eternal" and "for ever and ever" do not actually mean eternal, and therefore no sinners will spend eternity in hell. Many of the flaws in this and other Universal Salvation arguments are well addressed at the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry Offsite Link website, so I won't repeat the arguments here. It would be nice if Universalism were true, but I believe that this doctrine is flawed. The greatest weight of evidence that I see in Scripture supports the view that sinners will be tormented in hell for ever and ever, because God looks at sin with a deeper revulsion and hatred than we can ever imagine. Let the horror of the ultimate fate of sinners spur us on in our evangelism!
 
 
I hope this has been helpful, and may the Lord abundantly bless you as you study His Word!

Hi Grevillea
 
Thank you for the compliment, I pray that you take time to ponder the following just as you took time to look up the article that you found. It would be great if we could talk person to person instead of article to person.
 
YOU SAID:
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
 
MY RESPONSE:
Are the words “day and night” singular or plural?
 
YOU SAID:
He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.
 
MY RESPONSE:
When does smoke rise the greatest from a fire? When it is burning at it’s hottest or after the burning subsides?
 
YOU SAID:
There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
Those who enter into eternity will experience a rest from the torments and cares of this world. Those that do not will never experience such a rest. This rest is kin to what we experience each Sabbath here on the earth today.
 
YOU SAID:
Therefore, the Bible specifically describes sinners being tormented for eternity in hell, which provides Scriptural precedent for the view that all sinners will suffer eternal conscious agony in the Lake of Fire.
 
MY RESPONSE:
What your writer now does is to make inferences upon God’s Word instead of simply believing exactly what it says. It certainly is your choice to believe man or God. I’ll keep with believing God.
 
YOU SAID:
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)
 
MY RESPONSE:
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
 
Does this verse say that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of the future punishment?
Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?
If they are an example, then what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah will happen in the future too.
 
YOU SAID:
Since the Lake of Fire is the place where the beast, the false prophet, etc., will be tormented forever, and since all sinners will be thrown into the same lake of burning sulfur, the most natural and reasonable conclusion is that all sinners will suffer conscious agony in hell for all eternity.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Again, we are making assumptions upon God’s Word instead of actually believing it means exactly what it says. For him to make this assumption he would have to deal with verses like…
 
Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty.
 
Since the wicked still exist in the world today this passage has logically not been fulfilled yet.
 
YOU SAID:
"The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31)
 
MY RESPONSE:
What happens when someone burns up timber? Does it continue to exist?
 
YOU SAID:
"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)
 
MY RESPONSE:
“Consuming fire”
“Everlasting burning”
 
If something were consumed in fire would it continue to exist? How about Sodom and Gomorrah?
 
YOU SAID:
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24)
 
MY RESPONSE:
What type of bodies?
 
YOU SAID:
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48)
 
MY RESPONSE:
What happened to the part about the “dead bodies”? And are righteous going to be walking in hell while the unrighteous burn? “go out and look upon”
 
YOU SAID:
The reason the worm does not die and the fire does not go out is because sinners are never annihilated.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If this is the case which verses indicate that the unrighteous receive an immortal soul like the righteous will one day have?
 
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
 
We are not currently changed, but when the above event takes place we WILL BE changed.
 
YOU SAID:
"They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13)
 
MY RESPONSE:
“Blackest darkness” or “Eternal Fire” which is it? Surely it cannot be both at the same time.
 
YOU SAID:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46)
 
MY RESPONSE:
How would ceasing to exist not be “eternal punishment” when one is unable to experience the earth made new without sin and corruption along with it?
 
YOU SAID:
"The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14)
 
MY RESPONSE:
“Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”
 
And the answer is… ?
 
YOU SAID:
Why is hell eternal? Why will the fires of hell burn forever? The purpose of hell is for the punishment of sinners, so if the fires of hell never go out then it must mean that the punishment of sinners will never end.
 
MY RESPONSE
If a loving Father was really like this I would be your chief advocate.
 
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
 
Notice how this verse says that God gave His Son because He loved the WORLD. Not the righteous. Not the unrighteous. But EVERYONE.
 
Causing someone to burn forever because they refuse to follow you is certainly not love.
 
Forcing someone to live with you forever simply because you want to restore them to the place they were at is certainly not love.
 
The only act of love possible for God to make as it relates to people who choose to reject Him is to cause them to cease to exist.
 
Burning in an eternal fiery darkness is not love any more than forcing them to live for all eternity with the one that they turned their back upon.
 
YOU SAID:
Those who hold this view argue that the Greek words which are translated as "eternal" and "for ever and ever" do not actually mean eternal, and therefore no sinners will spend eternity in hell.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Perhaps they are right about their definitions but wrong about their conclusions.
 
What if you combine their conclusions with the unrighteous ceasing to exist? Would that not be another possibility?
 
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
 
Apparently the Biblical one too.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

Person to person certainly is best. Hall of mirrors is 99% article ,and 1% person ...does that make him a particle? Will get back to you later with a reply..lots to wade through.

TO BE TORMENTED FOR EVER AND EVER can only mean one thing; which is 24 hours torment every day for ever.I don't see how you can dispute that meaning. Whether singular or plural is an irrelevance. Next..THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT RISES FOR EVER AND EVER; again , the meaning is unambiguous.Sinners smoke will rise forever. You are failing to read and accept what is written, with your comment about the quantity of smoke at various times. Next...I will skip over this, as I could not find much connection between my point and your response. Next..MAKING INFERENCES. What is wrong with making inferences? You yourself, have reached the conclusion that sinners do not burn in hell forever, by inference. The bible does not say in black and white that hell is temporary. You reached that conclusion by logical inference. No matter that the opposite view has a stronger case.One could assume that you are just determined to be different. It would be helpful to focus on the issue and not bring Soddam and Gomorrah into the debate.On the whole, I thought your reply barely addressed the issue at all. Therefore , case dismissed..hell is eternal.

Hi Grevillea
 
That was FUNNY!
 
I'm not sure, but I think you have a point.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

Hi Grevillea
 
Not so fast...
 
Since Scripture clearly says that Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of those who will suffer for all eternity...
 
2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 
then by looking at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah we have a clear understanding of what will happen to the ungodly simply be reading Scripture. Thus breaking down the above verse we find...
 
1. The condemned cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of what will happen to the ungodly.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes and ashes do not burn, but are the result of what happens to that which was burned.
3. The ungodly will be burned to ashes just as Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes.
 
No inferences needed to understand the above, just plain reading and accepting what the Word of God says. However, we continue...
 
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
 
Again we find that Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of those who will suffer eternal punishment. From the aspect of those within the fire it is eternal as they burn into non-existance and their eternity is ended. Elsewise how do you explain the ashes comment in the above verse?
 
Now let's turn to what God's Word says about the word "forever".
 
Proverbs 10:25
When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the righteous stand firm forever.
 
Here we see what happens to the wicked and the righteous.
 
1. Wicked are gone (no forever).
2. righteous stand firm FOREVER.
 
Again no inference needed, rather simply believing exactly what God's Word says.
 
Proverbs 21:28
A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.
 
This is even a better verse as it specifically outlines exactly what happens to the wicked.
 
1. Wicked perish (no forever).
2. Those who listen to the wicked will be "destroyed forever."
 
This verse does not give any indication of an everlasting torment, rather it clearly states "destroyed forever."
 
If a building is condemned beyond repair it is destroyed and torn down. This certainly doesn't mean that it continues to exist does it?
 
There are over 283 verses containing the word "forever" in the NIV bible. A question to ponder is if "forever" always means "for all eternity".
 
Daniel 6:6
So the administrators and the satraps went as a group to the king and said: "O King Darius, live forever!
 
Taking the position that there is no eternal life after this life would it be logical to presume that these people are exalting King Darius to "live forever"? Certainly they don't think that he will not die do they? There are many other verses that use the word forever in a way that doesn't mean eternally within God's Word. Fact is, we use the word forever in ways that don't mean eternally in our modern day language too.
 
Here are two more verses to ponder. Consider for yourself what they say and what they do not says.
 
Psalm 37:28
For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
 
Psalm 92:7
that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.
 
The Bible is quite clear about what will happen to the wicked. We only have to believe exactly what it says and follow that. Any time we make inferences upon Scriptue we are in danger of making God's Word say things that it clearly does not say. Sure, inferences need to be made here and there, but at such points only by using what God's Word says in other places do we come away with a clear understanding of what was being said in the passage clouded by mystery.
 
QUESTION: Where did the concept of an eternal hell originate at?
 
CLOSING:
Can you agree that simply because someone chooses to deny Christ for all their life... punishing them in eternal fire would be cruel and unusual punishment?
 
Can you further agree that forcing someone who has chosen to reject you to live with you for all eternity would also be cruel and unusual punishment?
 
What other option is left for a God who claims to love ALL the world and not just those who have chosen to make Him Lord of their lives?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

.. Then again, though 'IBIJ' has, to all appearances, seemingly tied all or most of his 'reason-for existence' {French= 'raison-detre'} to his minority 'take' on this, and a few other Bible issues; in 'my own world,' {plus, others} if a car is "totaled," {destroyed} in let's say, a "head-on collision"; if one were to apply 'IBIJ's' 'standards' to this cited 'destroyed' car; then, Even the metal, etc. from this 'totaled' car, would Not be allowed to be reformed {melted down} to make perhaps, Another car!
 
.. Remember, Both 'matter' and 'energy' Are indestructible, and if need be, 'interchangeable'; Since us humans are Also composed of "matter" {our physical bodies}, and are animated {if you will}, by our energy component, {our 'souls & spirits'}, in my own world, if one were to substitute "a car," for a person, to be "destroyed, forever and forever"; all that would mean, would be that the metal that composed that particular car, would Never be re-conformed to make another car!
 
..When Any person dies, they depart our {'limited wavelength'} dimension, and enter an unseen {to us} dimension. As far as the human-car analogy; to repeat, we're Both composed of {science-proven}, indestructable-interchangeable, "matter And energy"!
 
..Furthermore, when Any person dies, they become 'out-of-sight,' if not, totally out-of-our collective minds. As I {& others} 'see' it; when the Bible refers to people "being destroyed"; it's referring to their physical-selves; Plus the fact that, unlike some popular belief-systems 'running about'; they Don't get to re-incarnate physically, so as to get a 'second chance' to 'get-it-right.'