..Yes, I confess; sometimes I Do get insufficiently 'plainspoken'
{though Not intentionally}.. and my defense of why 'the way things
are' {injustices, & All} in God's Great Universe, causes God's 'Rep'
to suffer; mainly among the {ah-hem}.. unregenerate 'Boneheads'{!}
 
Excerpt, from http://www.wcg.org/lit/spiritual/trials/whysuffer.htm
 
..Hope this will address, Some of your {& others} quandaries{!}
 
As long as humans make mistakes, there will be suffering. If we could just take back that one decision or action that caused so much suffering. Oh, if we could eliminate one tiny mistake. But we can't. As long as nature is what it is, it will manifest itself as both Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. We will be blessed both with rain for our crops and cursed with typhoons that flood, destroy and kill. As long as we are physical and subject to breaking down and wearing out, sickness and death will be our lot.
 
Decent people will often suffer, and those who do terrible evils will often prosper. Jesus Christ pointed this out when he said that the rain falls on both the "righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45).
 
Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.
 
Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He'd have to if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.
 
During our entire lives we would be like helpless babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free moral agents or thinking beings, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to make choices.
 
We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God's fairness doesn't go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world.
 
God's perspective
 
Paul dealt with this issue in the book of Romans, chapter 9. He did so in the context of an important question: Why were only a few being called to salvation in the early New Testament church? Was God unjust in denying salvation for everyone at that time? Why did the vast majority remain "without hope and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12)?
 
Paul explained God's view of things by citing the example of the Pharaoh of the Exodus. In rescuing Israel from slavery in Egypt, God destroyed the Egyptian nation in the process. But wasn't that unfair? Paul asked: "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, âI will have mercy on whom I have mercy" (Romans 9:14-15).
 
The Israelites would certainly have said God was being fair! At last they were being freed from slavery. Life was certainly coming up roses for them. But if we had been Pharaoh or the Egyptians, our attitude would have been quite different. For starters, our secure world had just gone crazy on us. Our crops were destroyed. Our boys were massacred and drowned in battle. Our herds were slaughtered. Our country was wrecked. Our firstborn sons had been killed.
book review:
Three Questions Few Dare Ask Aloud
 
The book Disappointment With God, in the words of its author, Philip Yancey, deals with the gap between what many people "expect from their Christian faith and what they actually experience."
 
Christianity, says author Yancey, is all to often put forth as the good news of individual triumph and success in this world. Many Christians come to expect regular and dramatic physical evidence of God working in their lives.
 
Then, personal problems and tragedy strike people. But God doesn't seem to answer their prayers or end their pain. That's when many feel disappointment with God. They feel betrayal - and even guilt.
 
Mr. Yancey writes about our deepest desire to understand God when he seems silent. He asks why God fails to prevent our suffering, end it or reach down into our lives and make things right.
 
He also examines three basic questions we would like to ask God about our suffering, but few dare ask aloud. Is God unfair? Is God silent? Is God hidden? He believes these questions have less to do with faith than our feeling that God has left us, that somehow he doesn't care.
 
But there is an irony in the idea that God seems to hide himself from human suffering. Mr. Yancey observes that throughout history, in his dealings with human beings, God has really been the betrayed one.
 
God has been repeatedly put off by humans, as a jilted lover or rejected parent. He has been forced to distances himself because humanity has kept the potential relationship between Creator and human being from being formed.
 
Mr. Yancey thus concludes: "All feelings of disappointment with God trace back to a breakdown in that relationship." To make this point clear, he devotes a number of pages to the life of Jesus. God had come in human flesh to live among human beings - dramatically affected their lives - yet was rejected by them.
 
In spite of it all, God in Jesus grasped what it is like to suffer as a human. Mr. Yancey writes: "The New Testament records what happened when God learned what it feels like to be a human being." He asks: "Would it be too much to say that, because of Jesus, God understands our feelings of disappointment with him?"
 
In the second part of his book, Mr. Yancey takes up the meaning of the book of Job, which any exploration of suffering and God's presence must do. He concludes that Job is more than "the Bible's most complete treatment of the problem of suffering." He discovered that "seen as a whole, Job is primarily about faith in its starkest form."
 
When trials do come, says Mr. Yancey, we should not ask "Why?" about suffering, but "To what end?" His conclusion about the Christian and suffering is that "God deserves trust, even when it looks like the world is caving in."
 
Had we been Egyptians at the time, only one conclusion would have been possible: God (or any number of the gods) was grossly unfair to us. Here was God mercifully intervening in human affairs to make life better for an entire nation - the Israelites. But there was still something unfair in the grand scheme of things. Another nation - Egypt - had been humiliated and destroyed.
 
Paul had only one answer to such apparent contradictions of life. We must trust God to work out his purpose, as he sees fit. And, to be sure, God does have a plan of salvation for all humanity.
 
No answer to "why?"
 
Paul had responded to the question of God's fairness. But he didn't answer the question directly. His response to his readers was to inquire - Why are you even asking?
 
Paul's response was a stinging rebuke: "Who are, you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Romans 9:20).
 
But don't we have the right to ask God: "Why did you make me so I would get cancer or suffer a stroke? Why wasn't I a clay pot with a different design?"
 
But Paul refused to directly answer "Why?" He defended God's wisdom and justice. Paul wrote: "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" (Romans 11:33).
 
Paul insisted that no matter what our suffering, we must accept that God is wise, merciful and just. Paul was saying that God allows human suffering because he is God. God is so great, his thoughts so far above ours, that inferior human logic does not apply to his actions.
 
There isn't always a clear why to suffering. It's really the wrong question to ask. A specific why looks back to something that we can't change. We must look forward by asking: What purpose is there to life, unfair as it may sometimes seem? What future does God have beyond this life of suffering?
 
We should understand God correctly. He is not an advocate of suffering for its own sake.
 
God hates suffering
 
One example. More than 2,500 years ago, the prophet Jeremiah surveyed the carnage of the city of Jerusalem, sacked by the Babylonians. Inside the besieged city, starving mothers had eaten their dead children.
 
Jeremiah looked past the suffering of a sinful and dying generation to a future with hope. "Men are not cast off by the Lord forever," he said (Lamentations 3:31). "Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men" (verses 32-33).
 
But it was in Jesus Christ that God showed his attitude toward human suffering. He once and for all demonstrated he does care by sending his own Son to this earth.
 
Jesus lived, agonized and died by the rules of life, the same ones we live and suffer by. It was actually God in the flesh who came to suffer with us. It was the greatest example of God's love possible. Jesus Christ himself said it: "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).
 
Less than 24 hours after saying this, Jesus, as God incarnate, gave his life for all the world. He had suffered and died for human beings, to take away their sins and open up salvation for those who would believe. John witnessed this death of God in the flesh. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ exemplified love. John expressed it eloquently: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
 
In the crucifixion, God put to rest for all time any idea that he doesn't care about us during our suffering. In the future resurrection of the righteous, God will give them immortal bodies and make their lives suffering-free. The tortured, the cancer victims, the unloved, the paraplegics, the lost and lonely - everyone who has suffered and is suffering - will suffer no more.
 
God will swallow up suffering and death in the victory of eternal life. He will be the God who cares, who is seen, who is fair. Then, God will be known to all humanity. He will act as healer and life-giver, one who does not take pleasure in human suffering.
 
In that new world, described in the final chapters of the Bible's last book, Revelation, God will dwell with his people. Revelation chapter 21 tells us: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (verse 4).
 
Paul Kroll
 
Companion article: Why must Christians suffer?

This is great. You've proven my argument for me! You found an article that says god allows suffering. HA! I love it.
 
This article:
god allows suffering
 
Last article:
god affects the minds of atheists
 
Conclusion:
god finds it more important to affect the minds of atheists than to stop suffering
 
Thanks.
 
BTW, if Milk could stop suffering, it would. It provides essential vitamins and nutrients.
 
--SoCo

.. Normally, I'm happy for other people, if they in-turn are happy;
or otherwise believe, that they were somehow vindicated.
 
.. But such is Not the case here. First off, you seem to think
that my mostly copy & paste {latest} article makes You 'come up,
smelling-like-roses' {to borrow a metaphore}; I guess that 'comes-
with-the-territory' of my previous observation that you {among
a few others} give Every indication of 'scanning' {as opposed
to thoughtfully-reading}, the entire-context, of presumably..
Any article of importance, that goes against your own, very much
ingrained {and fallacious}, belief-system!
 
.. Maybe in your own irrational mind 'SC,' this will Also help 'make-
your-day'{!?}.. as 'JC' is recorded as having said, in the 'N.T.',
{not sure exactly where, but it can be looked up}, to paraphrase:
'The poor, you shall Always have among you' {key-word search: "poor";
in one of the 'Gospels'.. ie. Matthew, Mark, Luke or John}.
 
.. Enjoy your topsy-turvy 'world' {and weird rationalizations} 'SC'.
With a mind such as yours; perhaps, it will one-day allow you to
brainwash yourself, that.. what Most of us think of 'pitch-blackness',
'aint-so-bad'; and, as for all that 'smoky-heat'{?!}.. oh, well..{insert
your own mindless rationalization, here}.
 
{Ps. To 'IBIJ'.. I'm Really Not "judging" anyone here!.. as I Don't
view the above scenario as an automatic 'given'!.. since people Are
Known.. to 'change-their-minds,' at some point!
.. Consider this as a form of 'Tough-Love'; in the tradition of the
prophet Jeramiah{sp?}. Exhibiting 'NO-LOVE,' would be to let 'SC'
{among others} have their false 'world-views' etc., go Both unop-
posed, And ignored!; and I even 'dare say,' that, in 'IBIJ's 'p.o.v.,'
'Misleading Love,' would be to erroneously tell 'SC'.. that, 'at worst,'
his {eternal} soul {amongst, many other 'pagans'}, will somehow..
'one-day,' 'poof' into 'nothingness'!? ..'give-me-a-break'!}

Hi Hmmmm
 
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
Which part of the world did Jesus love? Sinners? Saints?
 
Is the love of Jesus conditional? He will only love us if we first love Him?
 
How is allowing someone to burn eternally while others live in an "eternal paradise" an act of love towards those who perish? Answer that question and back it up with Scriptural references, and then I'll consider something other than exactly what Scripture teaches.
 
Hi SC
As for the good suffering, who says that the good won't suffer while going through this life? Certainly not the Bible...
 
1 Peter 2:20
But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
 
1 Peter 3:17
It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
 
1 Peter 4:19
So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ
 
PS: The above verses are just the tip of the ice-berg as it relates to people suffering for doing good.

To, 'IBIJ'.. "Different strokes for different folks"; No, it's Not
in the Scriptures, but it IS a truism Re. human nature {of which,
I, we.. are a part} that goes back to your question Re. Jesus
supposedly being 'ALL Love,' {or words to that effect, in your
own p.o.v.} to the exclusion {someway, & somehow} of the 'evil-
doers' among us, {who both exult, and remain confirmed in their
'Sins'}, supposedly escaping most {if not All} of their account-
ibility; even in the 'here-after,' by supposedly going 'poof'!
.. No more 'SCs,' 'doorman' or 'grevilleas' etc., to be found,
Anywhere, perhaps{!?}
 
.. Not a completely unappealing thought, {all things considered}
but, as You say.. Is that Scriptural/Biblically accurate!?
 
.. I'll be happy {if you're interested, which I Doubt!}, to supply
a list of Christian Web sites; even down to their specific "URL"
pages, which address these matters; including, as to whether 'JC'
was 'ALL LOVE'{!?}; to the exclusion of having a 'Judgemental'
aspect, to His being; plus, is there such a thing as an "Eternal
Hell"!?.. including, Scriptural-support.. in the form these various
'apologetic-Christian' Web sites, do it.
 
.. Knowing your distaste for Web sites that relate commonly accepted
Bible precepts {albeit, Not necessarily in agreement with the Bible
precepts, that You have 'latched-onto'; if that's Not 'good enough'
for you, then.. I'm Sorry!; Mainly for You, that is!
 
.. If you think that putting everything "in my Own words," Re.
what the Bible {supposedly} says, and then 'reporting-back' to
you,' is 'The Only Scripturally-approved-Way' to resolve dif-
ferences of {ah-hem} "interpretation"; realizing, how much you
detest that word!.. then it tells me that you're obviously con-
fusing your own preferences {which, in one 'sense'.. we are ALL
arguably doing!} with some supposed, 'Scriptural Ideal'; which
Just So Happens to suit Your Own Way of 'doing things'!!?
 
.. Incidentally, I don't doubt that you either have 'at-your-
fingertips,' All.. or most, 'SDA' 'talking-points,' Re. Your Own
denomination's 'take' on everything {or near everything}, Re.
the Bible, as You/they {'ah-hem'} interpret it; Or- if not quite
that, then you're apparently willing to literally 'put-in-hours'
and even days {much of it, through 'SDA' talking-points' repetition!}
in order to.. 'Win' {or be perceived as having 'won'}, a Scripture
'talking-point' {if you will} precept!
 
.. This type of 'BB' behavior {which you've become famous for}, is
Also known and practiced in less 'reputable circles'!; as in.. a lie,
and/or, a mistatement.. if repeated Often Enough, oftentimes..
comes to be regarded {by many} as 'The Truth'!?
 
..To recap; My 'Copy & paste'/'URL' Bible-question specific, 'offer,'
still stands!!

Hi Hmmmm
 
Does this make sense?
 
If it's not biblical, then it's not biblical.
 
If that makes sense then why would a person want to listen to man's position of how something that is not biblical somehow is biblical?
 
I've always stated that I'm much more interested in speaking with a person directly than with a URL or article they might reference. I don't see that changing any time soon.
 
If a teacher hands you an exam and you get an A+ because you were looking at the answers from another person's paper, why would that teacher be upset upon discovering that your answers actually came from somewhere else? Afterall, you were simply using the resources made available to you to succeed with the task at hand. Likewise, I'm more interested in talking with people about what they themselves believe rather than what they can find of what other people believe.
 
RE SDA points... how many times can you put out that I have quoted anything or anyone other than God's Word itself. Oh, there are occassional Webster references, but to my knowledge he wasn't a Seventh Day Adventist. When what I teach is nothing other than God's Word why do you choose to spern it so?
 
Sure, Hitler used the idea that a lie said often enough can become true within the culture that it is bein distributed in. Question? -- As a bible believing Christian, what lie have you found me putting forth according to the Word of God?
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

To, 'IBIJ': I prefer to phrase our respective Bible understanding differences,
as 'honestly-held, misstatement-of-facts, {when considered as 'a whole'}
based on ignorance; Rather than a "lie," or "lies"{!}
 
.. Notice that in my previous post, I made reference to Both "lies"
and "misstatement-of-facts"; yet, not suprisingly, you chose the
Most egregious charge.. "lies," as the charge I made, that supposedly
applied to you{!?}
 
A 'straight-out' "lie" {or "lies"}, would be more appropriate, for let's say,
espousing a view of racial superiority; including, those views.. {held
by some, in the world} based on "hatred"!
 
.. You already know "IBIJ," {or Should know, by now} where your
understandings of the Scripture differ from 'the late'{?} "JEBUS,"
"grandpa13," and I would imagine, a few other, very 'low-profile'
believers; at Least as far as this 'BB' is concerned..{"QUILL,"
comes to mind; basing it, on his old {& getting older} "MIP"
Caissa's Web, page}.
 
.. So, for me to recount those different 'understandings' would be
redundant; and merely another prelude to you wanting to debate
the merits of what you believe, vs. what other 'believers' believe!
 
.. Perhaps we can agree on This much; ergo: You, your wife, along
with myself, the 'late'? "JEBUS" and "grandpa13," Can't ALL be
entirely right! .. And That my f{r}iend, is where the 'misstatement-
of-facts' starts to come 'into play'!; which can be researched by
Anyone who cares to, on the 'Web'; not to mention, that each
person is 'free' to make up their Own mind!!

Sure, each person is free to believe what they will but not all beliefs end up being right... that's why it's important to focus on what God's Word says and believe that over anything you or my might want to believe the Scriptures teach.
 
IBIJ2 & myself went to a Baptist church today. Not surprisingly when they got to...
 
"most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep." - 1 Corinthians 15:6
 
They skimmed right over this without even the slightest explanation. The writing is obviously not a parable or a simili. So why in the world would Paul write it the way he did, unless that was exactly what he was trying to say?
 
There is a great difference between believing something and ignoring something that is blantantly stated simply because it doesn't match what you want to believe.
 
Cheer
IBIJ

.. Ho, boy.. My chance to be a 'contrarian'! -- Other than to speculate
that some of {Saint} Paul's personal biases and 'token' compromises,
{as seen in the Scriptures}, out of respect/pressure of the social
customs of the times; in myself, trying to 'come-to-terms' with
your own 'introduced,' 1 Cor. 15:6; There Are apparently, more than
a few Bible scholars who think that 'St. Paul' Did In Fact, have
several biases that 'leaked-over' into what are otherwise, his
Divinely-Inspired writings{!?}
 
.. Without claiming to know.. whether in-fact, this Was, or Was Not
'the case'; it's something to ponder; given 'Paul's other Scrip-
ture injunction, Re. {to paraphrase}.. 'All women should keep their
mouths 'Shut' in church; plus, should Always wear a 'head-covering'
while In church!
 
.. Just out of curiousity, 'IBIJ', do All 'S.D.A.' churches 'faithfully
apply' {as in, 100%}, Both of {Saint} Paul's aforementioned edicts?
..and if Not, then.. Why Not?! {I'm admittedly on a little hypocritsy
'SDA' 'fishing-expedition' here!}.
 
.. Continuing on, what about in the 'O.T.'s "Mount-of-Transfiguration"
{Scripture} account, where both Moses and Elijah appeared with 'JC'
{I think}, while appearing to converse with each other; yet, as I
recall, two of the men seen, had 'died'.. some years' previous?!
 
.. Also, when Paul was "caught up" to the "Third Heaven," he said:
..whether I was in, or out-of the body', I do not know." Why would
'Saint' Paul even allow for the possibility of having been "out-of-
the-body," if he knew that was theoretically impossible?!
 
.. One more example, that comes to mind; Also, in the 'O.T.'..
when the "dead" {evil} rich man, literally begged {'what's his
name'} to be allowed to come back to his former physical environs,
to convince his brothers to turn from their evil ways, lest they
also experience the same torment he was suffering, and had his
request, summarily denied; to Many 'believers,' that indicates
not only a place of torment {regardless, of what one chooses to
call it}, but also, the survival of conciousness, After 'death'!!
 
..'What, Say You, 'IBIJ'?! 'Trolling' for the facts/'Truth'!!

Well... I took about 30 minutes to respond and then found my entire response lost... I'll have to respond again soon.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

 
While this may indeed be the case we are left with asking if the state of the dead is among one of these cultural biases.
 
John 11:
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
 
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
 
If it was indeed a cultural bias then Jesus Christ Himself apparently held the same cultural bias. The only other option is that they understood that death and sleep were synonimous as they indeed are.
 
 
We were just talking about cultural biases were we not? If you find something within Scripture (as is the case within the law) finding at least 2 or 3 other references to the same point makes the case strong. Finding nothing that supports a given thought does quite the opporite. What was the position of Jesus as it related to women speaking in the church or the wearing of long hair which was done by more than just women? Upon investigating the answers in this way you will come to an understanding of what Seventh Day Adventists believe about such issues.
 
 
There are a handful of people who are indeed in Heaven. These being two people among them as are Enoch and the people that rose from the grave during the crucifixion time. However, especially in the wake of Scripture saying entirely the opposite, these references do not indicate that people as a whole go to Heaven immediately upon death. We could examine exactly why each one of these people are in Heaven in a later post if you like. Suffice it to say, there indeed are reasons directly given within God's Word for these exceptions to the rule.
 
 
Again we need to consider cultural influences within this statement. The point was that the vision had nothing to do with Paul and everything to do with the vision given. People wanted to exalt Paul, he continually encouraged them not to. This is but one of the examples of such taking place.
 
 
Not to understand this as a parable is to be quite naive indeed. Unless, of course, you really think a drop of water is going to quence someone's thirst when in the eternal fire of hell. And if you believe that then can you really be happy in Heaven while talking to people burning in eternal torment across a ravine of some sort? Understanding this as a parable it becomes much more about Christ coming to the earth to save man and less about whether there is an eternal hell or Heaven.
 
For the record a parable is a story based on real life illustrations. Unless, of course, you truly believe a farmer would be stupid enough to sow seeds in rocky places.
 
Cheers
IBIJ