{'HoM's preface: I think that most all Christians would agree
that the Bible was Not intended to be taken 100% literally!
..Too many problems {in interpretation} occur, if that were the
case{!}..plus, how could a person otherwise correctly interpret
many, if not all.. of, JC's 'parables'!?
 
..That being the case, I find it somewhat stupifying {if you will}
that there Are 'believers' who claim that our human-consciousness
ceases to exist, until the "Resurection" of everyone {'the good,
the bad, and the ugly'.. Er, 'scratch' the last part}, simply be-
cause the passages do not address the matter explicitly enough!?;
for them, that is; for most other believers, it Does!.. and even
More so, when one cares to avail themselves of the original
Scripture text languages, {ie. ancient, Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic};
of which, 'IBIJ'.. and presumably his fellow '7th-Day-Adventists,'
{amongst, one or two other sects} de-emphasize the importance of
various pertinent, word-origin meanings{!?} {end of 'HoM's preface}
 
Sleep as a Metaphor for Death, Proves 'Life-after-Death'{!}
 
Neo-Sadduceeism
Refuted!!!

The fact that death is likened unto sleep proves that man continues to exist after death.
False teachers wrongly define death as extinction, annihilation, non-existence or unconsciousness.
Man has no conscious existence apart from the body after he dies
 
1. It would be appropriate at this point to deal with the doctrine of "soul sleep," which is continually taught by the annihilationists in order to refute conscious torment, in both the intermediate and eternal state.
 
2. It is always argued that the mere fact that the Bible refers to death by the word "sleep" is absolute proof that there is no conscious life after death. That this is an erroneous argument is seen from the following facts l. The word "sleep" is a metaphor describing the appearance and posture of the body. Even Froom admits that it is a metaphor. 2. The word was also used by the Greeks, Egyptians, etc., to describe their dead. Since these surrounding cultures indisputably believed in a conscious afterlife, their use of the word "sleep" to describe their dead obviously cannot mean that they believed the dead were unconscious. Thus, the mere presence of the word "sleep" in scripture as a metaphor for death cannot logically be used as an argument for soul sleep. As Jeremias stated: " The notion of soul-sleep is just as foreign to the N.T. as to Judaism; the image of sleep is introduced simply...as an euphemistic description of death.
 
3. Sleep, in describing death, is nothing more than how the living view the dead. Yet even still.. we exist, think, dream and experience consciousness when we sleep!
 
Bible verses that use sleep, as a metaphor for Death:
 
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2
"Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples therefore said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. Then Jesus therefore said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Jn 11:11-14 Ps 90:5 Thou hast swept them away like a flood, they fall
4. asleep Mt 9:24 He began to say, "the girl has not died, but is
5. asleep." And they began laughing at Him. Mt 27:52 tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen
6. asleep were raised; Mk 5:39; Lk 8:52 The child has not died, but is asleep Ac 7:60 "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, Stephen fell asleep. Ac 13:36 "For David ... fell
asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay 1 Co 15:6,18,20,51 some have fallen asleep ... those who are asleep, we shall not all sleep, 1 Th 4:13-15 those who are asleep ... have fallen asleep in Jesus 2 Pe 3:4 ever since the fathers fell asleep
 
Sleep, as a metaphor for Death, proves conscious life after death and refutes Arians:
 
We exist when we sleep
 
We are conscious when we sleep
 
Dreaming is a conscious activity while asleep. In fact the Bible warns that we can even sin while asleep!
 
"Yet in the same manner these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh" Jude 8
"Indeed, my mind instructs me in the night." Ps 16:7
 
Examine closely these three parallel verses:
 
"whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." 1 Th 5:10

How do you live together with the Lord when you are dead? Obviously there is conscious existence after death!
 
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Rom 14:9

Jesus Christ is the Lord of the dead who must consciously exist!
 
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him." Lk 20:38

Jesus refuted the Sadducees by proving that the dead are not extinct, but continue to exist. God is the God of Abraham right now, because Abraham consciously exists!
 
Notice how awake corresponds to living and asleep corresponds to dead:
 
Jehovah is the God of both living And dead {Lk 20:38}
 
Jesus is Lord of both living and dead {Rom. 14:9}
 
We live together with Him whether "awake," or "asleep" {1 Thess. 5:10}
 
{'Web'-sourced, copy & paste reference:
http://www.bible.ca/d-death=sleep.htm

Hi Hmmmm
 
Okay, let's presume for a moment that we continue to live after death despite the fact that this was the first original lie that Lucifer gave to Adam and Eve our ancestors and despite the fact that it continues to work quite well for him down through the centuries.
 
Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
 
I now charge you with the same challenge I gave to GP13 in the not so distant past. According to Scripture show me how you get your bodiless soul to Heaven.
 
Speaking of bodiless souls, here are the ingredients for making mankind.
 
STEP 1
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground... (While this step does produce a man it is missing a key ingredient - it's not living!)
 
STEP 2
...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life... (This step makes the form of the man live. Notice what enter the man to cause the living part to commence. It is the "breath of life" also known as God's breath.)
 
STEP 3
...and man became a living soul. (Notice the word "became" there? According to God's word we don't have a soul inside us, but rather we ARE a LIVING SOUL.
 
Here is the above verse in it's entirity.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
Do we have other evidance of the "breath of life" entering into man rather than a bodiless soul?
Gen 1:30, 6:17, 7:15, 7:22 and even Rev 11:11)
And those are just direct references of verses with the words "breath of life in them.
 
Therefore, according to Scripture we ARE living souls. Now the question is what happens after we as living souls die. While I will agree that there are indeed metaphorical references between sleep and death in Scripture would this make every reference thus metaphorical? Probably not, just think of it from the stand point of our own culture.
 
Family traveling with small children.
"Mommy are we there yet, it's taking FOREVER!"
 
Is it taking "forever"? Of course not. Does the child really think it's taking forever? Of course not. Is it clear that the child is tired of traveling? Yes. Does this conversation in the car thus nullify the use of the word "forever" within our modern day English language? Hardly.
 
With that said please explain to me if these following verses are speaking metaphorically or explicitly.
 
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
 
Mark 5
40But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" ). 42Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished.
 
Luke 7
12As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried outâ014the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. 13When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, "Don't cry."
14Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, "Young man, I say to you, get up!" 15The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.
 
John 11
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
 
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."
 
CONCLUSION
Sleep and death were interchanged in the Jewish culture as metaphors because the teaching of sleep and death being the same was commonly believed in that culture. Jesus Himself used this teaching rather than correcting it so that people understood the truth. He certainly corrected their thinking on other matters why not on this one? Unless, of course, on this point they had indeed grasped the truth of sleep and death as a culture as Martha indicates later in John 11.
 
John 11
21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
 
23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
 
24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
 
Notice that she did not say "I know he is in Heaven now." But rather she reflected upon what Scriptures state elsewhere. But before you accuse me of not giving the full context lets look at the very next verse.
 
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
 
Did you catch the words "even though he dies"? What point is Jesus making? Perhaps this next verse will clear that matter up.
 
Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 
Pay particular attention to words like rest of the dead, first resurrection, & second death. Apart from the coming resurrection we all will die, but sad is the lot of the man that experiences the second death. Jesus was not telling Martha that Lazarus would not die, but rather that he would not experience the second death from which there is indeed no recovery.
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
PS: Read all of Rev 20 to get even a bigger picture of what it is I was talking about above, especially verse 4.

To..'IBIJ'-- I know that this will probably 'strike you' as a
'cop-out' on my part; but, if it hadn't been apparent to 'Yours-
Truly' before {tho, it probably had}.. your own resistance {or is
it, more like a 'refusal'?!}, to believe in the human-consciousness
surviving everyones' physical death, is a multi-tiered {if you
will} opposition, to such a possibility; of which I could likely
spend All of today And tomorrow, researching your 'debating-
points'.. and you would most likely, Still be unconvinced!
 
..Do I have better things to do with my time{?}, other than my
last theological {of sorts},'Shot-across-the-bow'..of your own
embedded belief-system?.. Ans. 'You Betcha'!
 
..Incidentally, though I Could venture my best 'semi-educated'
guesses, Re. your own counterpart questions, I have little
doubt that it would be up to your own 'standards'; but Only
because it would likely be a 'fruitless' example {if on, another
level} of a 'blind-person' trying to communicate to a deaf
person; without the benefit of an interpreter; ie., the third-
personage of the 'Trinity' perhaps; telling Both of us, in No
uncertain terms.. 'This is what was meant'!!
 
..But lest anyone think that I'm conceding your points out of
any weakness of theological approach {actually, it's Not that
simple, as I've already described!}.. I couldn't help but notice,
that my own 'copy & paste' arguments, contained a number
of sound contrary arguments {to your Own belief-system}, which
you 'blew-right-past'..{without comment}, as if they somehow
weren't even 'introduced' into the preliminary forum!? {if you
will}.
.. I don't deny that you've appropriated to yourself, by ignoring,
one of a number of debating 'weapons'; but anyway, if you're Not
going to address the {contrary} points I came up with, why, 'pray-
tell'.. should I address your own stated objections?!
..Anyway, it's Not as if our respective divergent interpretation-
views, has {excuse, the expression} 'Damning consequences'!
 
P.s.- You should believe in what the Bible says {including, allowing
for 'metaphors' as constituting adequate illustrations}, and Not of
the mindset that Everything has to literally be 'Spelled-Out' for
your benefit, in one sentence!.. {'2 2= 4'.. Happy?!} 0:

YOUR POINT
Parables are not to be taken literally.
 
MY RESPONSE
Reference child riding in car as a counter point. Not to mention that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a PARABLE in and of itself told by Jesus.
 
YOU POINT
Conciousness exists after death before resurrection.
 
MY RESPONSE
Reference first death, second death, first resurrection, & second resurrection from my counter post.
 
YOUR POINT
Sleep is used as a metaphor
 
MY RESPONSE
Reference my counter post which talks about why metaphors are used in various cultures.
 
YOUR POINT
The fact that death is likened unto sleep proves that man continues to exist after death.
 
MY RESPONSE
No it doesn't. However, to accept such a position as biblical one would be in need of answering my previous posts counter points on where Jesus was talking about sleep and death in a variety of circumstances.
 
YOUR POINT
Since we dream when we sleep we must be concious when we are dead given that sleep is used in that context too.
 
MY RESPONSE
Perhaps this is the point I didn't address. My apologies.
 
Have you ever heard of "types" of Christs? Are they really Christ or simply dipictions of various points about Christ. Like...
 
Jonah 1:17
But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.
 
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
Here you find Jonah portraying the death period of Christ. This certainly didn't mean Jonah was Christ!
 
In the same way, today we dream and sleep while we are alive. That certainly doesn't mean we will be dreaming when we are dead. Why?
 
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
 
No reason, other than that the Bible explicitly says so.
 
YOUR POINT
Here are countless verses that prove your point.
 
MY RESPONSE
Tell me which versus were not simply copy and pasted from another writer's post and I will be more than glad to deal with those. Your given style is to post articles from others that we are to read. My given response to that is to ignore what another person's words may be in favor of what yours are.
 
CONCLUSION
Given that my previous post did indeed address a number of your points directly it is indeed a cop out to say that you won't answer my questions because I did not answer yours.
 
Tell me which exact questions you (not someone else) want me to answer and I'll be glad to provide the answers. Now the question is, can you do the same or is the bodiless soul bound to suffer a void of not being able to get to either Heaven or Hell. GP13 was not up to the challenge, and apparently neither are you. Don't you find that even the least bit ackward?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 

IBIJ
 
You state, grandpa13 wasn't up to the challenge. May I ask, "What challenge"?
 
grandpa13

Hi GP13
 
Remember our conversation when I said something like...
 
"For a moment I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that people continue living after they die."
 
Now... using God's Word show me how you get that bodiless soul to Heaven.
 
You never answered that question and verbally chose to dismiss it as unnecessary to answer. That my friend, would be the essence of not answering the question.
 
I probed further on several other occassions and you continued to choose not to answer. Would you like to change your mind now?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

..Yes {'IBIJ}' in retrospect, I Was inattentive to your replies that you
Did reply to, in answer to my 'c. & p.' counterpoints; thus 'blowing a
Big-Hole' in one of my retorts; probably, in part, {if not wholly} due
to my {belated} realization that, no matter how all encompassing &
scholarly the Bible research I'm capable of, {or even, "JEBUS" or
"grandpa13" etc. for that matter} it will almost inevitably 'fall-well
-short' of changing some of your beliefs!
 
..Do I find it awkward, in retrospect? Yes; although 'in-truth'.. I
probably shouldn't feel any more "ackward" {quoting, you} about it,
than the 'sum-total' of all of your misspellings, and literally dozens
of postings to the effect that you know what your 'talking about'..
Re. the Bible, and most everyone else is full of 'hooey'; to the
degree that their own Scriptural 'assessments' diverge from your
own{!?}
 
Ps. I must say {'IBIJ'} that you give every indication {if only
metaphorically} of being from the "Show Me" state of Mis-
souri!; as in, to paraphrase You: 'Will someone please 'show
me' a Scripture {or Scriptures} where I've gone wrong, and
I'll admit my {as in your own} mistake.'{!}
 
..'Big Deal', and 'Truth-be-Known'; the Bible {as it is written}
allows for enough 'Wiggle-Room' for you to continue, {in
clear conscience, even}..to believe what You think it says;
and the same principle holds true for myself, "JEBUS," etc.,
etc. Even the 'R.C. Pope' {I dare say!}.. ie., there is probably
No living-human, who.. like yourself, can change his present
belief-system; Re. 'for starters,' his belief in his own "infallibility,"
Re. 'Scriptural matters and interpretation.'
 
..There ARE religious-sect examples, though, that I think we could
Both agree, that the Bible does Not allow 'wiggle-room' {if you will}
rationalizations for; The {crazy} 'Mormon' doctrines, come to mind{!}
 
..Such is the case, when 'God's-Revealed-Word' encounters, human-
'free-will' nature; of which, None of us.. is immune from. {fini}

IBIJ
 
Time and time again I have proposed several statements in regard to scripture and you just ignored my ideas totally and went off on a tangent quoting a whole list of quotes that agreed with your beliefs and never even acknowledged my version. Anything I said that you didn't agree with you totally ignored and started claiming you are quoting Gods true word, because you are interpreting it literally. Even though you know the Bible has been translated and revised thousands of times the past several thousand years. You refuse to acknowledge that ancient scripture has inner and outer meaning that is literal and figurative or psychological meaning
 
You know and I know that neither one of us have a clue as to what actually happens after we are dead.
 
You refuse to study the early scriptures because they may not agree with your King James modern version that you read literally and claim you are preaching Gods true word. Not to mention a few other books out there.
 
Speaking of King James, history tells us that he had a falling out with the Pope and wanted to preserve the church in England as "The Church of England" and ordered the Bible to be revised and called the King James Version. He also ordered some changes to be made. For instants he ordered the footnotes in the margins to be removed, the word Priest be changed to Elder, the word Church be changed to Congregation, etc.
 
It is said that the Authorized King James Version of the Bible had a profound affect on English literature. Obviously it also had a profound affect on literal interpreters.
 
Don't get the idea that I don't believe that the Bible is the true word of God. I do, I just have a problem with the people that pretend to know how to interpret it for others.
 
Don't run around trying to correct some of my statements as I am not quoting anyone but myself.
 
Grandpa13
 
 

Okayâ026 Iâ019m going to attempt to touch on the highlights since Iâ019ve been gone and see how far I can get.
 
HMMM SAID
no matter how all encompassing &
scholarly the Bible research I'm capable of, {or even, "JEBUS" or
"grandpa13" etc. for that matter} it will almost inevitably 'fall-well
-short' of changing some of your beliefs!
 
MY RESPONSE
Correct, when scholarly writing does not confirm what Scripture says I will indeed default to what Scripture says over manâ019s wisdom whenever it is the case that I have identified such having taken place.
 
HMMM SAID
than the 'sum-total' of all of your misspellings, and literally dozens
of postings to the effect that you know what your 'talking about'..
Re. the Bible, and most everyone else is full of 'hooey';
 
MY RESPONSE
I have stated repeatedly that what I have to say is of little to no significance compared to what Godâ019s Word has to say. Would you like to discuss any particular topic while looking at Godâ019s Word alone to find the answers? Perhaps Scripture relating to getting a bodiless soul to Heaven before the resurrection would be a good place to start, no?
 
HMMM SAID
"Show Me" state of Missouri
 
MY RESPONSE
Whether from Missouri or not this would indeed be a valid conclusion.
 
HMMM SAID
'Truth-be-Known';
 
MY RESPONSE
You are correct that many people say many things about Scripture. All are of no import (including my own) compared to what Scripture clearly says about itself.
 
HMMM SAID
The {crazy} 'Mormon' doctrines,
 
MY RESPONSE
Mix 90% truth with 10% error and what are you left with if not error? Come to think of it going to Heaven immediately upon death, keeping Sabbath on whatever day preferred, and such doctrines are right up there with those â01CCrazy Mormon doctrines.â01D Which is the very reason I once again call whomever is reading this back to studying the Word of God and finding out what it says for itself over and above any other approach including (and perhaps chiefly) my own.
 
PS: I do indeed have my spelling and grammatical issues, but thankfully it is n!ot o?t!en th.e ca!se tha?t I p!u?t punc!tuat!ion I!n t?he mi??ddl!e of m!y wo?rd!s.
 
GP13 SAID
You refuse to acknowledge that ancient scripture has inner and outer meaning that is literal and figurative or psychological meaning
 
MY RESPONSE
Sure, there are parables like Lazarus and the Rich man that references Abrahamâ019s bosom. Parables should indeed be taken as exactly that. But on other verses when it is meant to be taken literally it would be an error to take them figuratively. Especially if the Words beings spoken were coming from Jesus Himself. Perhaps itâ019s my blindness, but I do not recall you building a case for a bodiless soul going to Heaven immediately upon death. Oh, you talk about it, but neither you nor HMMM has attempted to do such a thing at least up till now. Iâ019d be more than glad to ponder your position if you actually built one for me to ponder.
 
YOU SAID
You know and I know that neither one of us have a clue as to what actually happens after we are dead.
 
MY RESPONSE
If I did not know what happens after death then what about all the Scriptures that I have put up that teaches us exactly what happens after death? Is my blindness catching?
 
YOU SAID
You refuse to study the early scriptures because they may not agree with your King James modern version that you read literally and claim you are preaching Gods true word.
 
MY RESPONSE
I have no trouble studying early Scriptures and do so often. However, those too are translations but with a twist. Since painfully few know Greek or Hebrew it is much easier to claim â01Cthus saith the Lordâ01D when the general populace does not have the wisdom or knowledge to counter the claim. This was one of many issues that Luther himself had with Catholicism. Scriptures need to be taught in the language of the people rather than Latin or any other lesser known language. Thus I focus my quotes on providing a language known by the masses rather than any other position. Besides, since God gave us the original Scriptures donâ019t you think He has the capability of handing their content down through the ages in tact?
 
YOU SAID
It is said that the Authorized King James Version of the Bible had a profound affect on English literature. Obviously it also had a profound affect on literal interpreters.
 
MY RESPONSE
Perhaps, but then they would have adjusted such things as soul sleep out of the Scriptures so that I would quite literally not have a leg to stand on. It truly is a miracle that even with their tampering of Godâ019s teachings they have remained largely intact.
 
YOU SAID
Don't run around trying to correct some of my statements as I am not quoting anyone but myself.
 
MY RESPONSE
Imagine that statement in the court of law. Judge, do not correct me for Iâ019m my own witness and thus you donâ019t have the authority to do so. Youâ019d be laughed right out of the courtroom my friend. It may be the case that you have made your own statements; and it may be the case that you havenâ019t used Scripture. But the process of doing so does not thus confirm any of your positioning (or mine for that matter) in regards to Scripture. Now if we want to talk about Scripture you know that Iâ019m more than willing and ready to do exactly that.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
My statement:
"Don't run around trying to correct some of my statements as I am not quoting anyone but myself"
 
You say, "Imagine that statement in a court of law, I would be laughed out of court.
 
You interpret the Bible literally, why don't you interpret my statement literally, why did you change the meaning of it?
 
For your information; all legal law in the legal court system is literal. They must judge you on what you actually said in words, not on what you meant.
 
Gp13

Hi GP13
 
So lawyers never draw on intent of meaning from statements that are given under oath within the court of law?
 
Simple answer... the Bible is infallible... you and I on the other hand are not.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

..Maybe this link will help you two 'feisty debaters' in
helping to establish a 'common roadmap' {if you will} of
where your apparent argument is going{!?}
 
Ps. Anticipating, 'IBIJ's' response; BEWARE, of people who
say, in 'so-many-words': 'I don't need No stinkin' roadmaps;
the Bible, is its Own 'Roadmap'!
 
{All,'well and good'; BUT, for the figurative 'chicken-bone,
caught-in-the-throat' matter, of Bible interpretation!!
ie. One 'Christian Bible,' and probably dozens of denom-
inational and religious-'cult' interpretations{!}; further
complicated by disagreement over What and Who, is espousing
the 'Christian message,' with a 'cultic twist'!?}
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b02.html

Hi HMMMM
 
What exactly would a cult be?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

..'IBIJ' asked: "Exactly what would a cult be"?
--Answer; It didn't take very much 'Web-surfing' on my part,
before I came up with a 'near-defiition' of a "cult," that I
felt 'comfortable' with!
..Keep in mind, that due to the diversity of Scripture inter-
pretation; even among All 'probable' 'born-again' believers,
{as in.. accurately known,'Only to God/'JC'}; there is No
universally agreed upon, and definitive 'working-definition'
of precisely what a cult is{!}
 
The following {near} 'definition,' is from:
http://www.religioustolerance.org
 
Overview:
 
In this web site's section on Christianity, we have attempted to describe the full diversity of beliefs taught by various wings of Christianity. Unfortunately, this might lead our readers to believe that there are few core beliefs that most Christian denominations accept in common.
 
The Cardinal Doctrines of Christianity are those beliefs which most Protestant denominations accept as forming the foundational teachings of Christianity. Many, perhaps most Christian faith groups feel that all Christians should believe each of these beliefs. Some groups would classify a person as a non-Christian if they rejected even one belief on their own list of Cardinal Doctrines.
 
There appears to be a general consensus by conservative and some mainline Protestant faith groups that a list of core beliefs might include:
bullet The Trinity,
bullet The deity of Jesus,
bullet Jesus' bodily resurrection,
bullet The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
bullet Personal salvation by grace,
bullet The inerrancy of the Bible
bullet God's inspiration of the Bible's authors,
bullet The virgin birth, and
bullet The anticipated second coming of Jesus.
 
But there does Not appear to be an agreed upon single list that most Protestant faith-groups, accept as "cardinal doctrines."
 
{'HoM's comment; The fact that the church that 'IBIJ' belongs to,
and my own {also, 'Christian'} religious upbringing, could perhaps
be said, to have more in agreement on, {Re. the Scriptures} than
disagreement, causes our respective differences to 'fall into' a
'gray-area'..{if you will} where there is probably No universally
agreed upon opinion.. in Either 'camp,' as to whether the 'other
believers' constitute a "cult," or not!?}.
 
Ps. I'm not getting into any more 'intra-Christian' disputes with 'IBIJ'
{or any other 'believer'} Re. our Scriptural disagreements; simply
because, though I'm aware that there Are those among us, who are
really 'itchin'-to-debate 'fellow-followers' of Christ; at 'the-end-
-of-the-day,' Both sides 'retire' to their separate {and arguably,
'minor'} 'belief-systems'; leaving those 'sheep' 'Outside-of-the-
fold' {if you will}, 'turned-off'.. And perplexed!
..Ergo, oftentimes 'coming across' to the 'unsaved,' as if the
'Christian faith' has much less to offer, 'in answers,' than is
actually 'the case'!!

Hi Hmmmmm....
 
I love that stance you took at the end of your post. With it your able to cling tight to your beliefs be they bent on righteousness or not. Trust me, the non-believers don't give a care if we debate or not. In fact, those that read these writtings are then able to decide the relevancy of truth for themselves having listened to both or even all sides. If the non-believer chooses to reject everything because of differences between believers then wouldn't it be the case that they have their eyes focused on the wrong target anyway? It is upon Christ they should focus not man as we (even you and I) will never "get it right" 100%. Christ on the other hand will never "get it wrong" 100%. And those who reject Christ because of our disagreements were likely to have done so anyway and using the discourse as a "cop out" just as your are attempting to do here.
 
To that extent...
 
This appears to be the root of what you say a cult is.
 
bullet The Trinity,
bullet The deity of Jesus,
bullet Jesus' bodily resurrection,
bullet The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
bullet Personal salvation by grace,
bullet The inerrancy of the Bible
bullet God's inspiration of the Bible's authors,
bullet The virgin birth, and
bullet The anticipated second coming of Jesus.
 
Exactly which of the above bullet points have I ever talked against? Further, if we are in Heaven immediately upon death then how is it that we would be looking forward to what we have already received through the second coming of Jesus?
 
Cheers
IBIJ