"You are attaching the meanings behind the object or person of worship or faith. They don't intrisically exist. The meaning resides within you."
 
That, CutandPaste, was my original statement that you said contradicted the "may not exist" statement.
 
This confusion is my fault, but the statements are not contradictory. "They don't intrisically exist" refers to the meanings, not the object. Your meaning of god is different than gramps' and that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not god exists.
 
I'm sorry for the bad pronoun usage, but I stand by my argument.
 
Before you go throwing the term idiot around, remember that those making the spectacular claims are required to provide spectacular proof. If you believe that a god, as described by the bible exists, then the burden of proof falls on you to deliver.
 
I don't claim to be all knowing. I am only making the same claim I*IJ does. I am examining the known facts at hand.
 
Unfortunately for you, pointing to the bible as proof that the stories in the bible are true is a circular argument that carries no weight.
 
You need outside sources to verify, and as grevilla pointed out, you have none.
 
So do you want to offer opinions on the theoretically questions posed by grevilla and myself, or do you want to toss around the term idiot, and cut and paste circular arguments of how the bible is right because the bible says it's right.
 
--SoCo

..Actually, 'grevillea,' the reasons Re. my Christian 'testimony'
Are being referenced {by myself} albeit, in 'dribs & drabs' and
indirect implications; as in, what are the chances of Jesus be-
ing the world's Most influential person {and having the Most
recognizable name} if he were merely telling 'a tall tale,' versus,
Him, telling the 'Truth'; With, accompanying fulfillment of Old
Testament prophecy, implications..{see, all of Isiah:53}, plus His
accompanying earthly ministry, when considered as a whole!
 
..It's probably the way my mind 'works' {imperfectly} that makes it
hard for myself to give a definitive over-view {in one read} of 'Why
I believe, What I believe'.. Re. 'JC's claims to Divinity; while simul-
taneously addressing your own {irrational-to-myself} 99-plus per-
cent, disbelief.
 
..Anyway, if I were raised in a totally different religion, there's a
high {statistical} likelihood that I would be a 'follower' to one
degree or another, for the better {or entire} portion of my 'earthly'
life; unless, God indirectly intervened, through a missionary, or
even 'vision' and/or dream{s}, let's say. {see, my next-upcoming
{'ah-hem'} 'copy & paste' post; Re. Muslims being converted to
becoming followers of 'JC' 'in droves'; which is largely going un-
reported in the 'mainstream' press!?}.
 
..Finally, {for now, at least} your question Re. why 'JC's ministry
and even existence went unreported for several hundred years after
He 'went-on-to-other-things' {if you will}; keep in mind that this
happened Long before the 'near-instant' worldwide communications
that we have now; plus, I'm fairly certain, if you {or anyone}
could 'time-travel' to selected cities, in let's say A.D. 90-100
I have reason to believe that there Would Be in existence, small
congregations of people who considered themselves, believers-in-
Christ.
..Virtually everything 'starts out' small; even "Starbucks"! {Hah!}
 
{Ps. Even the Bible states that 'God works in mysterious ways'!
..Who are you, I, or Anyone to say: 'No, He should've done it
This Way!'{?!}.. Plus, I'm sure that.. in 'God's Own Mind' {if you
will}, it's No doubt, The Ultimate example of: 'Timing, Is Everything!'}

..'SC,' said, in a previous post: "You need outside {of the Bible}
sources to verify, and as 'grevillea' pointed out, you have none."
 
.. Actually, the 'confirming' "sources" of 'JC's proclamations
are literally All around us{!}.. whether it be the people who
took up Jesus' ministry {on behalf of 'JC'} from 'the late'
"Mother Teressa," to Any number of 'self-sacrificing' missionary-
witness 'types,' who came both before, during, and after her!;
Many of whom, most people {even 'believers'} have never heard
of; but, whose sacrifices-in-lifestyles {for others}, are neverthe-
less, known-to-God.
 
.. This, incidentally, is a confirmation of Jesus' Scripturual pro-
nouncement: "Greater works, shall you do, in My Name." {Not
being a 'chapter-and-verse' person.. this quote, Can be 'googled'}.
 
..Speaking of 'outside-confirming-sources' being 'all-around-us';
not many years ago, 'SC,' if you wanted to learn about how the
'God-of-the-Bible' was 'moving' upon people, both today, and in
the many years Since 'JC's 'ascension'; you, or most anyone..
would've needed to go to perhaps your average big-city library,
{quite likely, 'Way-in-the-back'} and pick out some relevant 'tome'.
 
..Now, thanks to the 'world-wide-web', these 'many-multiple' 'mod-
ern-day Christian testimonies, {both written, and video} are more
than ever, of the 'In-Your-Face' variety! -- Ergo, there is No ex-
cuse for people like yourself and 'grevillea'.. to ignorantly claim
that there are "No outside," and 'confirming sources'.. Re. 'JC's
Message!
..Whether you {or anyone} decide to 'google' "Christian testimonies,"
or perhaps related topics; like I say, the 'info.' is All around us!
 
..What follows, is one of probably hundreds of videos on "YouTube,"
{and it might not even be the most compelling video testimonies!?;
since there is traffic background-noise}, that appear by the {likely}
hundreds, as I've said; by typing-in on the "YouTube" search-
engine..{top-of-page}- 'Visions of Jesus.'
 
.. Incidentally, "visions" {along with, dreams & miracles} are another
one of God's methods, of reaching the 'unsaved' for Himself, according
to Scripture.

I'll address the youtube video first. This is the Argumentum_ad_populum fallacy, the appeal to the people.
 
50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong!
 
In fact, they can. The Chinese have a proverb about 3 men making a tiger. The theory being that if an idea is repeated enough, it must be true.
 
How about millions of smokers? Can they be wrong? Millions of muslims or hindus?
 
Lots of people claiming to have religious encounters or near death experiences means absolutely nothing logically.
 
Lots of people went along with Hitler too.
 
The bible is vidicated because it said that people would do great things because of it, and you believe they have.
 
Bible says X will occur
X occurs
Everything bible says is true
 
Nope. This is the Hasty Generalization logical fallacy.
 
I go to Oregon
I meet an idiot
Everyone in Oregon is an idiot.
 
I'm obviously not going to bash Mother T, or anyone doing charity work because they feel god called them to that, but for every Mother T, there are Jimmy Swaggert's and Jim Bakker's afoot.
 
Selfless acts and demagogy have both been undertaken in the name of your saviour, and in the name of other religious icons.
 
None of that increases, or decreases for that matter, the likelihood of your deity, as you understand it, existing outside of yourself.
 
My deity, grevillea's deity and your precious deity are all valid only to us.
 
I assume that you have a relationship with something you believe to exist and that relationship holds special meaning for you. Why can't someone else have that too? Why can't that be me and my milk? Ask yourself why you find it important that others believe in your god, or that the bible be vindicated to validate your faith.
 
--SoCo
 

Memory Unchained, you are still missing the point, and you still have not answered my question. You say that Christianity has "confirming sources" of JC's proclamations....welll, ok, I am not disputing that fact. The point is that all religions, also have their own "confirming sources". So how to choose. That is the question that I want you to answer. So far you haven't answered or can't. I'll ask again...on what basis should a person choose Christianity over Buddhism, for example, or over Islam?

Replying to this by grevillea:
 
> As for JC's impact on recorded history.....
> you obviously know that there are no writings of that time that make
> mention of him. Not for a few hundred years after his death, which
> makes me wonder if he existed at all.
 
Really... How about all the original writings about Jesus in the New Testament.
 
Or the persecution against Christians after the Great Fire of Rome year 64.
 
"The New Testament was complete, or substantially complete, about AD 100, the majority of the writings being in existence twenty to forty years before this. Mark shortly after AD 60, Luke between 60 and 70, and Matthew shortly after 70." quote, Prof. F Bruce.

'grevillea,' asked: 'On what basis should a person choose
{to 'embrace'} Christianity, over the Muslim faith or
Buddhism, etc.'
 
..My best educated guess; of which other 'born-again' believers
might give a different answer to{!}.. is, how 'JC' fulfilled 'Old-
Testament' prophecies!
.. To the best of my knowledge, no other 'founder' of a religious
movement, had his {or, her} later appearance on the 'world scene,'
predicted, in some earlier era writings{!}.. plus, fulfilling those
same prophecies, in more ways than one contextual reference, as
did Jesus {Christ}! see, the following link {if you want} for
supporting evidence. http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm
 
.. Incidentally, the responses of both 'grevillea' and 'SC' confirm
to me, as they probably will to others; the author of the {'tail-end'}
quote; .."To those who Don't believe, No explanation is satisfactory."
 
.. Anticipating in advance, the just mentioned quote, that I be-
lieve applies to Both of these 'unbelieving' 'Caissa members'; in-
cluding, the likely anticipated negative 'feedback' to Anything
I can post {including, 'in-my-own-words'}.. my short-lived time
of witnessing to them, is over with {until further notice}; if I
want a thankless task, and for some 'comic-relief,' perhaps I'll
next try to get several ounces of toothpaste, back into its tube{!?}
 
.. Which only leaves me to wonder; given that in the 'Old Testa-
ment'.. that God was recorded {I assume, on more than one occassion}
to virtually give up on certain people, to their own "reprobate"
minds; I can only wonder {without spending Too much time at it};
which of these two 'gentleman' will one day end up in a 'deeper'
{word, omitted?!}; or, perhaps, they'll one day get to share a
'small, dark & stuffy,' 'broom-closet' type of enclosure{!?}
 
{I'm now in an 'incoming-flame,' 'defensive-mode'; from, 3 people!..
including, 'IBIJ'.. who is convinced that I just posted a 'heretical'
non-Bible-supported, gratuitous remark!} ..**N-O-T!!**

Yes, I did get it wrong about the time gap between the death of Jesus and the first written reports of his life and death. However, several decades is still a long time, and as Southern Comfort said only yesterday "pointing to the bible as proof that the stories in the bible are true is a circular argument that carries no weight." I couldn't put it better myself.

At the great,personal risk of becoming a pedant, you still did not answer my question. FACT is Christianity does not have a monopoly on "fulfilled prophecy" If you don't want to give me an answer...just say so. So, one more time, on what grounds should I become a Christian , instead of a Muslim?

Hi SC
 
Iâ019ll respond as I go down through the following writings without a clue of what they have to say yet.
 
YOU SAID:
but subscribes to the non-cannonical belief that the serpent in Genesis is Satan/Lucifer.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Yes, the serpent is Lucifer.
 
YOU SAID:
If the serpent was Satan, the divine scripture would have said so right? So we can't assume, remember?
 
MY RESPONSE:
How many names is Christ Himself known by in the Scriptures?
 
Son Of Man
Lord of Lords
Rider on Right Horse
Michael The Arch Angel
 
Just to name a few. Given that there are numerous names for Christ how likely would it be that there are numerous names for Lucifer?
 
Lucifer (KJV - Isaiah 14:12)
Satan (KJV â013 47 references)
Devil (KJV â013 33 references)
Morning Star (KJV - Isaiah 14:12)
 
Evidently this is the case. Now who exactly was talking to Eve in the Garden.
 
Genesis 3:1
[ The Fall of Man ] Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
 
And according to Webster what is a serpent?
 
1 aarchaic : a noxious creature that creeps, hisses, or stings b: SNAKE
2: DEVIL 1
3: a treacherous person
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/serpent
 
So according to Webster serpent is another name for the Devil.
 
Further, it is interesting to point out the definitions for the word dragon.
 
1archaic : a huge serpent
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dragon
 
And Scripture uses the Word dragon 14NIV & 34KJV times with the majority of those times referring to Lucifer, the serpent or snake himself including...
 
Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ014those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
 
Now a question for you. Since the curse upon the serpent was to crawl upon the ground what possibilities would their be that snakes or serpents actually used to fly?
 
As for your Adam & Eve fable, they had to get the story from somewhere, no?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

SC SAID
The meaning resides within you.
 
MY RESPONSE
John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
 
2 Corinthians 12:11
[ Paul's Concern for the Corinthians ] I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.
 
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
 
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
 
GP13 SAID
I guess if you put humans and animals on the same level (basic objects) that could make sense.
 
MY RESPONSE
It is illogical to put us on the same level of animal or coming from animal. Not even our flesh was made the same way.
 
1 Corinthians 15:39
All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
 
GRRRR SAID
The Christians here, can not give a single reason, why their faith is the true faith.
 
MY RESPONSE
I can see Damascus still waits for you my friend.
 
However, you are correct. We cannot give one single solitary reason to choose Jesus Christ instead of any other religious icon not countingâ026
 
Eyewitnesses
Secular history
Prophetic fulfillments
Personal experience
And, oh yes, the empty tomb
 
Yah, not a solid case at all.
 
Carry on.
 
HI HMMMM
assuming, from your own 'point-of-view,' the remote
possibility that the 'Judeo-Christian' God exists; should He 'look kindly'
upon your Eternal disposition{?!}..
 
MY RESPONSE
Easy answerâ026
 
John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
That includes everyone, not just believers. Which is why an eternal hell simply does not make one ounce of sense. Especially when biblical support for such an idea simply does not exist.
 
GRRRRR SAID
You and no one else on the Christian side have yet answered how and on what basis you would make your choice.
 
MY RESPONSE
This is whyâ026
 
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
GRRRRR SAID
If God does exist, then I doubt He will look too kindly on me, although it will be all His fault.
 
MY RESPONSE
Why would it be His fault? Scripture spells the truth out quite clearly.
 
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 
Romans 5:7-8
7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
 
HI SC
"You are attaching the meanings behind the object or person of worship or faith. They don't intrisically exist. The meaning resides within you."

That, CutandPaste, was my original statement that you said contradicted the "may not exist" statement.

This confusion is my fault, but the statements are not contradictory. "They don't intrisically exist" refers to the meanings, not the object. Your meaning of god is different than gramps' and that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not god exists.

I'm sorry for the bad pronoun usage, but I stand by my argument.

Before you go throwing the term idiot around, remember that those making the spectacular claims are required to provide spectacular proof. If you believe that a god, as described by the bible exists, then the burden of proof falls on you to deliver.

I don't claim to be all knowing. I am only making the same claim I*IJ does. I am examining the known facts at hand.

Unfortunately for you, pointing to the bible as proof that the stories in the bible are true is a circular argument that carries no weight.

You need outside sources to verify, and as grevilla pointed out, you have none.
 
MY RESPONSE
Not much into studying historical documents, are you my friend. Neither is GRRR for that matter.
 
 
Cheers
IBIJ

All of you are misguided and will burn in hell. A carton of milk being worshiped is blaspheme. Clearly a jug of milk with a twist off cap is the true path to enlightenment.
 
D

Hey I*IJ, the new american bible reads genesis this way:
 
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made.
 
Read the line; serpent = animal
 
If serpent = Satan, then it would read as such. I do like you pointing to Websters as proof, that's rich. Points for creativity, but the fact is that the line simply doesn't read the way you want it to.
 
Webster gives 2 definitions for Satan and neither make any mention of serpents or dragons.
 
We should explore the serpents' curse more to really show how wrong you are.
 
Please show me the historical document outside of the bible that can corroborate your story.
 
How does the book of Matthew start? With a geneology, right? Which traces jesus' roots from abraham through mary, correct? Wait...no...I stand corrected. It traces his roots through joseph? What's this?
 
What's the point of tracing his roots through joey when joey aint the daddy? Unless, joey was the daddy and the virgin birth was added later to help win more greek converts. So jc would fit more in line with their pagan deities like Hercules, and be more readily accepted.
 
That's the road that historical documentation is going to lead.

Doorman, in the old days, you'd get churned at the stake for comments like that.Anyhow, welcome to the faith. Membership has tripled in the world's fastest growing religion.

Hi SC
 
serpent = satan
is as to Satan as...
dog = man
Is to someone deemed by another to be a bad person.
 
However, to your credit I looked up the following words
* Devil
* Lucifer
* Satan
And found no reference to a snake or serpent within Webster. I then attempted reverse logic by looking up...
* Snake
And this is what I found as one of the definitions.
2 : a worthless or treacherous fellow
Through the use of reverse logic we do indeed arrive at the outcome through historical docementation of the written word for snake - serpent - Lucifer - Satan - Devil all being able to exist within the same plain and identifying the same entity.
 
I'll need to do a bit of homework on the genealogy question.
 
What I do know is this. There are two distinctly different genealogies for Christ within God's Word.
1. Is the genealogy of the Son of God as it relates to man.
2. Is the genealogy of the Son of God as it relates to God.
Why?
Simple. This shows Jesus Christ being 100% man and 100% God all at the same time.
 
I'll get back to you on that one.
 
Cheers
IBIJ