YOU SAID:
I did point out that it was my belief that the Jew's had an opportunity to continue to be led by God just like they had been while on their way to the Promised Land, but they failed to be grateful for being rescued out of Egypt and for being fed out in the desert. Thus the Law and the Judgments and the Ordinances were handed down to govern their lives, both personally and corporately as a nation. There is no "recorded" choice made by the people, as I apologised for.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Thankyou for that admission. I'm sure you know what I would encourage on thoughts of men about God's Word that are not directly spelled out within God's Word. I'm not saying that this is the case in this instance, but far to often building upon such positions is what leads to confusion of God's Word as well as false doctrines and worse. Let's continue.
 
YOU SAID:
You ask if since the old covenant dealt with physical sacrifices to cover sins is there a similar system in the new covenant? Yes, there was a similar physical sacrifice that was made. Christ sacrificed Himself once, for everyone, for all time.
 
MY RESPONSE:
So then the "old covenent" and the "new covenent" is all about the sacrifical systems that were in place at the time of those covenents being in force?
 
YOU SAID:
Do I need to post the verses that state this? Do I need to trace the argument God made as to why Christ had to do this for us? Let me know.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Not really, I think we both understand these components of the equation. Less of course others raise questions making this a necessity within the next 2 months.
 
YOU SAID:
But there is also a new component to this new covenant.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I'm hoping you develop this thought more and backed with Scripture too. This is my first time thru your post.
 
YOU SAID:
Believers need to be a living sacrifice to Christ. Romans 12:1 says, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
 
MY RESPONSE:
So our lives would be part of the "new covenent" as they become part of the sacrifical system. Does this mean that the lives of those who were under the "old covenent" were not part of the "old covenent"?
 
YOU SAID:
A living sacrifice promotes a continual condition in us as saints. Each and every act born out of a love for Christ raises a sweet savor up to heaven. Each represents a sacrifice of some sort.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Makes sense.
 
YOU SAID:
Believers who yield themselves to God as being alive from the dead and whose members are as instruments of righteousness to God, are in God's eyes, not ritually but really are "holy" and so are "acceptable" or well-pleasing to God.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Wait! My wife died and she ceased to breath or have a pulse. She no longer communicated with me or her loved ones. As it pertains to my life she simply ceased to exist. I haven't gone thru anything like this. Does that mean I somehow have missed receiving salvation? What would you do about Scriptures like...
 
GOD's WORD:
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I presume this is figurative language rather than literal as I do not believe it is a widely held belief that if you become a believer you are buried 6 feet under.
 
YOU SAID:
Our reasonable service is not worship of idols, animal sacrifice, nor daily adherence to the Law. I will post more on this aubject at another time.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If you do not worship idols, and the 10 commandments are part of the law are you not adhereing to the law by choosing not to worship idols which is the direct mandate of commandment #2?
 
YOU SAID:
You ask if we, as Christians, can do whatever we please while the non-Christians are regulated as tohow they can and cannot live? The unbelievers can live any way that they choose. Should they? Of course not. But they will live however they so choose. Christians cannot live any way that they feel like. Part of this question is addressed by Paul in Romans 6. In verses 14-16 you can see, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" He also spoke in chapter 7 about sin and carnal nature and the law. The first three verses tell us about the fact that law has dominion over a person while they are living, but after death they are freed from the law. Likewise, once we die in Christ we are dead to the Law as is said in verse 4 and 6. Verse 7 asks if the Law is sin and gives the answer as No! The Law made sin known to me, and then ran rampant in my life.
 
MY RESPONSE:
So sin shall not have dominion over us. The next practical question at this point is how we determine what sin is or is not. Upon what measure do we determine the relevance or existance of sin?
 
YOU SAID:
Verse 10 speaks about how the commandments are meant to give us a healthy, long life but how that sin takes those commandments and uses them to deceive me and cause me to die.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Is this really what Romans 7:10 is speaking about?
 
GOD's WORD:
Romans 7
10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
 
MY RESPONSE:
While there is indeed an attempted deception... "through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful" -- does this not say that only thru the commandments do we come to understand what exactly sin is.
 
YOU SAID:
Verse fourteen tells us that the Law is spiritual and we are not. Then Paul goes into a discourse on the conflict that wages continually within each of us as believers. The spiritual versus the carnal natures.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Sure, and what is his conclusion?
 
YOU SAID:
Now, if we continue on to chapter 8 we find Paul speaking about the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." This new law has made each believer free from the law of sin and death. He goes on to cover a much broader scope than what our discussion seeks to settle here.
 
YOU SAID:
Let's look in Galatians chapter 3. Verses 12-19 relate to us the fact that the law, when given, could not negate the promise given to Abraham. Our inheritance does not come from any law, or set of commandments that were given to Moses, but it comes from God's promise.
 
GOD's WORD:
I'll save posting the verses you quote this time, but for all who are followig this dialog here are the verses.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%203:12-19&version=31
 
MY RESPONSE:
As it relates to the commandments, though I'm not sure how this relates to the covenents, I have never made the claim that they are given to us as the way to salvation. We are saved by grace, the commandments give us our map to living a good life on this planet by knowing how God wants us to live.
 
YOU SAID:
Verse 14 tells us that the promise was the receiving of the Holy Spirit. We receive the Spirit once we accept Christ on faith. Verses 21-29 elaborate on how the law is not against the promises of God but the law was meant to direct people to obtain the promises of God.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I would not disagree with this position.
 
YOU SAID:
Verse 23 states plainly that before faith came we could not get out from under the law, faith in Christ had to come first before freedom could be given to each of us.
 
MY RESPONSE:
So then what Noah, Moses, Abraham and other such people excercise if not for faith?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ,
 
Are you asking what did the Old Testament believers have faith in? If that is your question, the answer would be that they had faith in the fact that God would honor His promise of a Messiah, a Savior, a Redeemer. They each simply had faith in God and His Word. They believed that He would do exactly what He said He would do for them, and for their descendents.
 
~Jebus

Hi Jebus
 
YOU SAID:
> Are you asking what did the Old Testament believers have faith in?
 
MY RESPONSE:
I believe there is a lot more meat in this reply than just this, but yes this was indeed one of my points.
 
YOU SAID:
> If
> that is your question, the answer would be that they had faith in the
> fact that God would honor His promise of a Messiah, a Savior, a
> Redeemer.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Was this the complete and utter extent of their faith or was there anything further? I'll surely agree that this was an essential part of their faith. Likewise I too have faith that what God's Word say is exactly without question beyond a shadow of doubt exactly what it means. Case in point, though off topic, if God's Word promoted the concept of a rapture rather than a resurrection of our bodies from the grave then I would certainly believe that.
 
YOU SAID:
> They each simply had faith in God and His Word.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Exactly. Which is what I have repeatedly challenged people with throughout my years here on Caissa, which are quickly coming to a swift close. As it relates to God should we also not "simply had faith in God and His Word" while shedding all other baggage away?
 
YOU SAID:
> They
> believed that He would do exactly what He said He would do for them,
> and for their descendents.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Why don't we do the same today instead of building into God's Words ideas and concepts that are simply not there?
 
NOTE:
This is going off target from the New Covenant conversation, but a very good post by you my friend.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

You tell me what Paul's conclusion after Romans 7:14 becomes. You obviously have an opinion on this particular matter, shoot.
 
~JEBUS