..Personally, I think that Satan would prefer to have Christians
from different doctrinal/Bible interpretation points-of-view,
debate on the portions of Scripture that do Not primarily have
to do with 'reaching-the-lost' for Christ {and preferably, in a
never-ending circle} than to talk about God's simple plan for Sal-
vation, 'al-la' Billy Graham{!}
 
..Without naming names, although I view one 'party' here as being
the primary off-message {of the Salavation message} culprit; suf-
fice it to say that it's All-to-Easy to get 'caught-up' in how we as
Christian believer's differ in our beliefs, {which objectively..'imho',
pales in importance to God's Eternal Plan for reconciling the 'lost'
to Himself{!}
 
..To draw an imprecise analogy, it's like endlessly debating whether
the best way to get to Minnesota {let's say} is by car, or by plane..
with the planned trip.. ie. making known God's/JC's plan of Salva-
tion, put on indefinite 'hold'.. until Both {and sometimes even All
parties to the dispute, from the 'believer's' perspective} are in
100% agreement}
..First, it 'aint gonna happen'.. in this life, at least; and second,
while all of this Scripture-based debating and even sniping is going
on, over issues that are 'several rungs Down-the-ladder' from the
{rather simple} message contained in, "John 3:16"; meanwhile, all
of the ignorant-skeptical and disbelieving of God's 'Good-News'
message, are not only left befuddled and alienated by 'off-message'
{pertaining to Salvation} disputes among 'the elect' {giving 'IBIJ',
the benefit of any personal doubts}.. but perhaps even worse, simul-
taneously, the people to whom God would have know Him in a more
personal way, are left in a state-of-limbo, and remained more sep-
arated from Him..{God} by comparison; all the while wondering,
{brace yourself for another analogy}.. 'how much longer are we
going to be stuck in this stinkin' overcrowded, Tiajuana {Mexico}
bus station'{!?}
 
{With my apologies, to anyone offended by my last analogy}

If I told you that you needed to bake a cake while withholding information for half of the ingredients involved for making the project a success, would you still have an edible accomplishment at the end of your task?
 
People want to focus on God's love and the salvation message.
 
Fine, I've no problem with that. But from the position of a lost person, if I thought for a moment that I would consider loving a God who would allow my dad to burn in the Lake of Fire (aka hell) forever simply because my dad did not accept His salvation message I would seriously rethink giving my life to Him. For that would certainly not be a loving God. Thus leaving the question of salvation as a crucible of unknown rather than victory in Jesus.
 
From the point of view of being a believer; should I find out that the God I serve is indeed a vengeful tyrant I would indeed become an agnostic or athiest in a heart beat. The second death which some will experience is the highest act of love possible for a God who has been thouroughly rejected by His creation.
 
Unfortunately people today appear to want to focus on half the recipe, that being the grace of God without reading the rest of the ingredients. Your quote of John 3:16 is indeed an excellent example.
 
John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 
That is indeed a very beautiful verse. But taken out of context it delivers the wrong message. That's the very reason you need to read John 3:17-21 to understand what this verse is speaking of.
 
John 3:17-21
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
 
Jesus did not come to condemn the world but rather to save the world. However for those who choose not to do 2 not 1 thing, there fate is sealed.
 
1. Believe in God (but even the demons do this much)
 
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ014and shudder.
 
2. How does one "come into the light" except by following what God has told us to do thru His very Word? So what has God told us to do?
 
Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
 
Exodus 20:6
but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
 
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
 
Which happens to be the very thing the adversary will be warring against until the very end of His existance.
 
Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ014those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
 
Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
 
Jesus did not think it best to be silent and just go along with the crowd in His days as man. After receiving the Holy Spirit His disciples surely were quite a vocal group. Why should we remain silent with so great a truth to be known. There's indeed plenty of reason not to...
 
Acts 20:26-27
26Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.
 
Christianity is a responsibility, not just a committment.
 
God Bless
IBIJ

'IBIJ', said: Christianity is a responsibility, not just a committment.
 
..I never said that becoming a Christian does Not involve a measure of responsibility.
..When most people make a commitment in the secular realm, as in buying a house..
or car, there is the usually an automatic understanding on the part of the buyer, that
With that commitment, comes the responsibility to take care of such, as in upkeep
and repair, the purchased {major-investment} object{!}
 
..In the same way that a realtor or car salesman doesn't see the necessity {or even
point} of impressing upon a customer-buyer, the need or desirability of giving the
customer a lecture on the responsibility of owning a house or car, once they've
made that commitment; in the same way, since 'JC' once drew the analogy between
being a fisherman with 'winning souls'.. in talking to "Peter," I would suggest that
the analogy I'm about to use in 'hooking'/catching a 'fish' {or unsaved soul}
is superior to your own anology of "baking a cake."
 
..Which is that when one is trying to 'hook-a-fish', the "hook" {or the initial object
of ones' concern} is entirely focused at the time, in hoping and half expecting that
a 'fish' {ie. unsaved soul} will 'go' for the hook, while the fisherman is usually Not
focused on how he/she will bake the fish {ie. Not initially instructing the yet-to-be
or {'spanking'} brand-new convert}.. in All the 'P's and Q's' of what the other
facets of becoming a Christian is all about!
 
..Were that to have been the case, in the Reverend's Billy Graham's 'rallies', it stands
to reason that his sermons would've been one-and-a half..to twice as long, with a
fraction of the new {hoped for} converts-to-Christ, that he {Graham} actually
impacted upon, and undoubtedly at the very end {of his lengthened sermonizing}
at Least half of the stadiums he preached in, would've long since have emptied
out!
..One final point/question, 'IBIJ'; If it turns out that There Is such a 'thing' as an
Eternal Hell, and/or "Lake-of-Fire," especially reserved for those whom God/JC
deems 'fit'; just for the sake of argument, are you then saying that You could
not 'love-and-worship' such a God, that allows for that?!
..And if that be the case, isn't that.. aside from being rather presumptious of you
{vis-a-vis, God's overall design of things the way they are}, bear an uncanny parallel
to you injuring yourself with a razor, let's say, in order to 'spite-your-face'?!

First, I see no value in tricking a new convert into "taking the bate" of salvation. Everyone should know what God's clear Word does and does not say rather than being subjected to possibilities of what it might say. God's Word does not change between you and I my friend, though what we might say about that Word certainly does.
 
If you can put accepting the Lord and Savior on the same level as buying a house or car, then you have definetly accomplished something I am not capable of. Whether that something is good or bad appears not to be the point here, but rather the fact that you have done so is all that matters.
 
As it relates to Billy Graham, he himself understands and believes in the Sabbath but refuses to change due to the confusion that it would generate. When someone knowingly deliberately goes against God's clear Word and teaches others to do the same there is a wake of trouble brewing in that man's soul. No matter who that man might be.
 
If there is such a concept as "eternal hell" though God's Word clearly does not teach this principle, then I would be in a position of questioning every point of Christianity since on this point we were obviously dubbed into teachings that held no truth. If even one aspect of God's Word is untrue then then it and those who provided it are held suspect.
 
Besides... doesn't God's Word say "thou shalt not bare false witness"? Wouldn't that be the ultimate dicotomy?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

.. Two points here, 'IBIJ'.. Jebus was right 'imho', you Are "blind"
to appreciating certain alternative-views of Scripture {including, as
I learned today, those differences pertaining to an Evangelistic
approach!}.. even if it has to involve 'slinging mud' at alternative
means {from how your denomination does it} of gathering-in converts!
 
..In your last post, you made reference to Rev. Graham's method {among
others} of "tricking" new converts, by initially withholding from his 'Calls-
to {JC's}-Salvation' sermons, what I refer to as the 'P's and Q's'/re-
sponsibilities {the latter word, as You would put it} but it's mainly
semantics we're talking about here.. though I reckon you would disagree,
perhaps even vehemently{?!}
 
..Anyway, unlike your unfortunate implied perception of Rev. Graham's
motives, what I was referring to has Nothing to do with your implied
shady 'bait-and-switch' evangelistic-message tactics, but rather the
known limitations of your average person's attention-span, {espec-
ially, in 'one-sitting'!}
 
..For the record, in Graham's sermons {and I would imagine, most of the
lesser known Baptist {among others} evangelists that came after him,
both Did.. and Continue To, invite the new converts to 'come down' to
meet with counselors for a prayer, brochure and linking-up with a
church, information{!}
 
..For that matter, in every Billy Graham rally that I've seen on TV,
{even essentially recent, 15-30 year-old video-taped 'rally' sermons},
Rev. Graham would invaribly state that this initial public profession/
commitment, in their 'Faith-in-'JC's 'Saving Grace' {or words to that
effect} was merely a "first step" in their 'long walk' in coming to know
God!
..Though I confess ignorance in how 7th-Day Adventists attract new
converts{?}.. suffice it to say that your denomination would have
attracted far fewer than your current 15 million-plus members, world-
wide..{according to "Wikipedia"} if your various ministers and elders,
paid No heed to limited human attention-spans and time-constraints,
in one sitting!!
 
..Let's see, what were your other baseless disagreements, with my last
post{?}.. oh yeah, it's the same 'punchline' to the lead-in joke of,
'What does apathy mean?'.. Answer: "I don't know, and I don't care"!

Hey Hmmmmmm
 
As an x-baptist & x-pastor myself I was in no way meaning to critize Billy Graham's method of providing the salvation message. I am however concerned about where one positions themselves with God when they clearly understand doctrinal positions like Sabbath keeping and yet refuse to do it because of the seeming confusion that it would bring. Especially with God's Word clearly says...
 
"Remember The Sabbath To Keep IT Holy"
 
When a man (any man) embraces doctrines of man rather than God's clear Word that person is putting themselves in an extremely dangerous position. As Adventists we teach God's clear Word and allow people to make their own choices from the message presented. Evidentally there are more than a couple of people who have chosen to embrace and believe exactly what God's Word says while discarding all else.
 
You are correct. I have little to no tolerance for doctrinal positions that men take which are not clearly outlined in Scripture. Especially if those positions taken run contrary to God's Clear Word as is the case when one attempts to teach others that there is an eternally hell where all those who reject Christ will burn for evermore. What kind of loving compassionate God would create such a reality for anyone, even if they did reject the free message of saving grace which is available for all to accept at will Hmmmmm?
 
Cheers
IBIJ