BIBLE SAYS:
Luke 16:19-31
Lazarus and the rich man
 
MY RESPONSE:
Jesus often told parables in His ministry. As I have said before, unless you believe the following this would indeed be a parable.
 
*** You can see from Heaven to Hell. (and since we are being literal, which verse would you use to explain literally that Heaven was relocated from one place to another at some point in history?)
 
*** One drop of water is going to make a huge difference when burning in torment.
 
What these verses do is to show those being spoken to what would happen even if Jesus were to come to the earth as a man.
 
Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
 
BIBLE SAYS:
Matt. 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Iâ019ve never said there is no hell. Rather that hell is not eternal. This verse gives no indication of an eternal hell.
 
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
 
Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example? If eternal fire is everlasting then are Sodom and Gomorrah burning to this day? If not then how could these past places be examples for future events that are going to be exactly the same. Unless the example is that they are snuffed out as Sodom and Gomorrah indeed was.
 
BIBLE SAYS:
Matt. 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Luke 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Again, I have no question of a place called hell or hades. This verse does not in any way identify that such a place lasts forever.
 
BIBLE SAYS:
Acts 2:27
KJV: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
NIV: 27because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
 
MY RESPONSE:
While again these verse does not show an eternal scope it is interesting to see what the NIV scriptures do with the KJV word â01Chellâ01D. It brings up a point that is worth mentioning. Hell can be translated as sheol, hades, or the grave. Whatever the case, again there is no eternal aspect given in this verse.
 
BIBLE SAYS:
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Wasnâ019t Jesus in the grave until his resurrection? If not, according to what verse? If so, then wasnâ019t the grave and hell just referred to as one and the same?
 
BIBLE SAYS:
Rev. 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
 
MY RESPONSE:
What an excellent example of linking death and hades. Wouldnâ019t this mean that hades is the grave? Never-the-less, once again no eternal scope is presented.
 
BIBLE SAYS
Rev 6:8
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Why do I feel like Iâ019m repeating myself? Perhaps because I am? Read above.
 
GODâ019s WORD
Rev 20:13-14
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
 
MY RESPONSE:
What we previously saw is the grave gave up there dead, just like Godâ019s Word says.
John 5:28-30
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ014those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
It is then that the second death that your verse is referring to will take place just as Scripture says.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ014their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
If the first death means to be no more as it relates to our current existence, then how could the second death mean anything else?
YOU SAID
Scripture clearly teaches that prior to Christ's Resurrection hades was in two divisions with a great gulf separating them.
MY RESPONSE:
Since Scripture clearly shows this and the movement of the placement of such things, please show me.
CONCLUSION:
I am out of time for dialoging on this point now. However, if we look at the Scriptures you provided we find that there is indeed a place called hell. It is probably the grave as other verses demonstrated. However none of your verses demonstrated that this place hell would be a place where people live burning forever. Literal? Iâ019ll take that option. How about you?
Cheers
IBIJ

I see that you persist in your belief that the body and the soul is one and the same even though scriptures make it quite plain that they are two parts of what we are. In Luke 16:19-31 we are NOT being told that heaven and hell are side by side. You are replacing and transposing words from other verses into this passage. We are told that at that time paradise was a section of hell. There was a great separation so that souls on each side could not travel back and forth. THAT is what this parable is teaching along with what you stated. Revelation does not link hades with the grave. It merely states that our Lord and Saviour holds authority over both. Both are to be cast into the lake of fire as we are told in Revelation. If what you say is true then we get a very redundant statement if we substitute either word for the other. Come on. Get real here. If I recall correctly, I did not say that hell is forever since in Revelation it says the opposite and I have been quoting that scripture right along! Now, if you want to say that the lake of fire exists forever, I will not argue at all. But you won't say that. That scares you or something. You just can't picture a righteous God remaining true to His character, can you? You sure can when it comes to His commandments, but not when it comes time for Him to execute judgment on those who have slain His prophets, pierced His side, and rejected His Son who was sent to save them. He is who He is.
 
~JEBUS

You know, you really ought to right a book. It would likely do better than the Left Behind series in less than a day. Kinda like that new fictional series... what was it called again? Something like The Last Disciple or something? Great works of art that rank in the area of Moby Dick if I may say.
 
But your book would take on a whole new deminsion. May I recommend the title "All Those Unidentified Places"?
 
Hell doesn't last forever but the Lake of Fire does? Most people see the Lake of Fire as another definition for Hell. Never mind the fact that Scripture tells us it is the 2nd death. Now if it is the 2nd death and the first death on this earth is really really final, how final would the 2nd death logically be? Literally speaking of course.
 
YOU SAID:
> I see that you persist in your belief that the body and the soul is
> one and the same even though scriptures make it quite plain that they
> are two parts of what we are.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I'd love it if you would explain this to me, probably again. You know, I'm a bit slow. I'm so naive that when the Bible says...
 
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
I actally believe what it says. Ha! Silly ole literal me.
 
YOU SAID:
> In Luke 16:19-31 we are NOT being told
> that heaven and hell are side by side. You are replacing and
> transposing words from other verses into this passage. We are told
> that at that time paradise was a section of hell. There was a great
> separation so that souls on each side could not travel back and forth.
> THAT is what this parable is teaching
 
 
MY RESPONSE:
> parable is teaching
>
> parable is teaching
 
I must say I love those words.
 
> parable is teaching
 
How many literal parables are you aware of that Jesus taught? Weren't most used as illustrations to bring home key points?
 
Even so, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt excepting that statements within God's Word which people choose to build doctrines upon really should have more than one source to demonstrate the validity of what is being said. Just curious what your supporting verses for this earth (I mean heaven) moving experience would be.
 
YOU SAID:
>It merely states that
> our Lord and Saviour holds authority over both. Both are to be cast
> into the lake of fire as we are told in Revelation.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Whoooooooooa... please warn me next time your going to take a sharp right turn without signaling. I almost fell off the page. Both what are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire? Both Heaven and Hell?
 
YOU SAID:
> I will not argue
> at all. But you won't say that. That scares you or something. You
> just can't picture a righteous God remaining true to His character,
> can you?
 
MY RESPONSE:
I may seem rather naive on your doctrines my friend, but I must say I'm not as dumb as you think. I used to teach such silliness even from the pulpit. And when I taught it, I did so with all I had within me. Then I decided to put my understandings to the fire, and wouldn't ya know I actually learned something.
 
Second death means second death. Pretty literal if you ask me. Why must people be tormented forever in hell errrr the Lake of Fire for you to see God as being just? How does the righteouness of God's final judgement compare to parables like the prodigal son? How could a loving compassionate God simply stop being loving and compassionate. Even more, if He has somehow stopped being loving and compassionate once we enter Heaven wouldn't that be hell? The only reason that such teachings as an eternal helll errr Lake of Fire where people burn and burn evermore scares me is because it's simply not scriptural. Try as you might you cannot find one verse within Scripture that literal says people will burn forevermore in the Lake of Fire or hell. The closest you do get is an eternal Lake of Fire, but no mention of people eternally burning within is made in that verse. To make that leap you have to stop being literal and start being fictional... may I recommend reading Moby Dick instead of making God's Word say things it simply does not say?
 
YOU SAID:
> You sure can when it comes to His commandments, but not when
> it comes time for Him to execute judgment on those who have slain His
> prophets, pierced His side, and rejected His Son who was sent to save
> them. He is who He is.
 
MY RESPONSE:
As part of the human race, aren't we all guilty of such atrocites as those you mention above? Yeah, I take His Commandments literally. You've got me there, but then Jesus tells us to do exactly that. God's judgement will indeed be meted out. But does a good parent need to spank there kid repeatedly without stopping until they are 21 for the kid to get on the right course of life? I'm thinking not, no more than God must eternally physically continually punish the unrighteous. The punishment is delivered and they are no more. Why can't you see non-existance AS punishment. Think of all they will miss?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 

If only all y'al would just listen to me i could straighten y'al out and tell you how it is. Then you would go to heaven . As it is now y'als
goin to hell.

IBIJ
As Jebus says, You insist that the body and soul are one and the same. How does silly ole literal you (as you called yourself) explain these quotes?
 
Numbers 19:13
Whosoever toucheth the dead BODY of any man who is dead and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD, and that SOUL shall be cut off from Israel. Because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
 
Isaiah 10:18
and shall consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, both SOUL and BODY; and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
 
Isaiah 51:23
But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee, who have said to thy SOUL, `Bow down, that we may go over.' And thou hast laid thy BODY as the ground, and as the street to them that went over."
 
Micah 6:7
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my BODY for the sin of my SOUL?
 
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them that kill the BODY, but are not able to kill the SOUL; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Copyright © 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.
 
grandpa13

 

Hi GP
 
Good point. Those verses do indeed speak of SOUL and BODY separetly.
 
Matthew 19:5
and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ?
 
Mark 10:8
and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.
 
Ephesians 5:31
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
 
I think you are married, though I'm not for certain. Irregardless, do these verses not speak of two becoming one? Let me ask you, have your wife and you become one body yet? According to Scripture this is the case. According to visual dimensions this seems silly. Which is correct? Or perhaps depending on the perspective of what is being spoken of are they not both correct in there own right?
 
Kinda reminds me of talking about SOUL and BODY as two separate entities while being one. Or how about this one...
 
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
 
So is Jesus saying that He is the Father God? Or perhaps the Father God is the son? Are they separate? Are they one? Without even getting the Holy Spirit involved in this conversation we can already identify two separate entities being one.
 
Therefore, as it relates to SOUL and BODY which of your scriptures show these two entities separating upon death? Here's one that does exactly the opposite...
 
Philippians 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
 
The funny thing about this verse is that so many use it to prove that we go to Heaven upon death. How they can fail to read the word "DESIRE" or understand it's meaning is a mystery to me.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
Matthew 19:5 = Not a very good argument. My mother died in her sixty's and my Dad died at 93. They were obviously not one flesh. This quote is obviously not to be taken literally. It is figurative.
 
Have you ever heard of the Divine Trinity, "The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit," three divine persons in one. That is God
Man is a creature composed of body and soul made to the image and likeness of God, "body, soul, and spirit. That is man, a level above animals.
 
Grandpa13

Do not waste your time here, IBIJ is simply blind to the truth on this matter. I am not arguing with a blind man anymore.
 
~JEBUS

Okay, I'll accept your point for the sake of argument GP. Now, which verses will you use to clearly literally use to take that separate entity which you choose to call a bodiless soul to Heaven? And when it comes time for Jesus to come back and raise His followers from the dead...
 
1. Why does He have to come back if they are already in Heaven.
2. How is the soul supposed to reconnect itself with the body given the corresponding thousands of years that have slipped away in some cases.
 
Like it or not Jebus, these are real answers that are left unanaswered with your unbiblical doctrinal positions. Leaves me to wonder how GP will choose to or not to answer such challenges, since apparently Jebus will be refusing the challenge.
 
Job was a good man.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
In answer to your two questions, I don't know, and I don't think you do either.
 
You chose to create your own philosophy by pretending you are finding all the answers to the natural order of Gods creation, by trying to interpret the bible literally.
 
And then preaching to the rest of the world what is going to take place in the future, which no man has done as yet, that I have heard of. Oh a lot of false prophets have tried down through the ages, but failed miserable.
 
As I have said before and I say again, I am not going to waist my time arguing with you. Obviously Jebus has come to the same conclusion as I.
 
grandpa13

Hi GP
 
Yes, I see your point. My silly interpretations leave much to be desired. For example when I read...
 
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ014 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
 
And I am convinced that the last trumpet has yet to sound, I take this verse to literally be a future focused verse that hasn't happened yet. Since that is the case I interpret Scripture to be saying that the resurrection of our bodies is in the future not current or past.
 
As far as future interpretations, I'm just going to guess that you haven't ever read Daniel and even more precisely Daniel 2. For there you will find Daniel telling the future of time all the way down to the very end of time. You are correct that we do not know the exact date of the return of Christ, but as to future events you would have to throw both Daniel and Revelation not to mention several other books of the Bible away to take the position which you have taken.
 
You may come to all the conclusions you like, while I choose to believe the clear Word of God. So much for proving that the soul and body are separate entities as you weren't able to do anything with them once you got them seperated. LOL
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
Why are you so obsessed with predicting the future? Live right in the now and you won't have to worry about the future. Don't you have any faith that God will prevail over evil and we will get our reward if we do the will of God NOW and not worry about the future? The Lords Prayer says, "Give us this day our daily bread." It doesn't mention anything about the obligation of guessing Gods plan for our future.
 
When you get to where you can honestly explain Revelations, call me. In the mean time I will live Happy, Joyous, and Free with faith in Gods plan for me and all my fellowman.
 
grandpa13

Weren't we talking about the separation of body and soul? Why the diversion?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
I have come to the conclusion that having a discussion with you regarding spirituality or religion is futile, fruitless and unproductive. Do to the fact you have already made up your mind on the subject, no matter what it is, and then you search the scriptures for quotes that will support your illogical self interpretation or mind set. {Not theory, but mind set.}
 
So therefore I don't feel there is any point for me to carry these discussions any further.
 
grandpa13

Your choice, but you should realize this decision comes from an article thread where I gave you the benefit of the doubt that there is a separation between body and soul and then asked based on what Scriptures you now get that soul to heaven. To which you replied "I don't know". As you are more than aware I can show you countless Scriptures for support of staying in the ground till Jesus returns and why. Let's see what that gives us.
 
EITHER:
Illogical Biblically based explantions on a crucial topic of what happens after we die.
 
VERSE:
"I don't know"
 
Hmmmm... I think I'll stick with my illogicalness... carry on.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

IBIJ
 
In your life time, have you ever truthfully said, "I don't know"?
 
grandpa13

Most certainly...
 
For example... I don't know why people don't get what's clearly written in God's Word.
 
And I don't know lot's of other things too.
 
In your lifetime GP, how many times have you said that you know and understand what you believe to the point that you can teach it to someone else?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

'God's Word' was written by someone smoking some serious stuff. Maybe you all want to have that feeling of 'smoking that stuff', but that's where it ends. Heaven? = smoking that stuff....
 
There's always a shakespeare in every generation.

See, here is an excellent example of when I'm not "getting in the last word". After all "getting in the last word" would entail myself responding so this message and since I'm well errrr aaaa heh never-mind.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ

Hi JEBUS
 
How long does a fire last? It is for ever that is if no one puts it out but it will end as it will run out of fuel.
 
Sence that lake of fire is here on earth after the New Jersalem comes from heaven and splits the mt of olives the the people that didn't believe in God is raised and they ad mit that they where wrong then they attact the city only for fire and brime stones to fall from heaven creating the lake of fire and once the earth is cleans the new earth is created and we will be living here on planet earth.
 
If you are confused by what I just said or up to stretching our mind around Daniel and Reverlation. This is summing up many verses chapters so it will be lots of work so I don't expect an answer - reply for several weeks as it will take that long to research it out. Take your time and research it.
 
IBIJ2