Newspaper articles indicate that top military brass in America highly desire having a coninuiing presence in the Middle East to counteract moves that Iran has been doing and will continue to do in the foreseeable future. Petraeus does not want less troops in Iraq, commonsense indicates more troops would only benefit the effort. Liberals will not agree to such talk however. Bring our troops home to safety! That is the call from the liberals. How long before we would experience another terroist attack? It would be inevitable no matter how much you might wish to deny it. Facts are facts. These terrorists do not care if we all go home from around the world since then it would simplify their task at hand. Multiple targets globally would be reduced to just one, America. Paint the big bullseye on the Great Plains and hunker down! Every large city from coast to coast would be a legitimate target.
 
Iran's leaders have been and are continuing to talk publically of extinguishing America, Israel, and ultimately Western Civilization. All in order to rid themselves of hated infidels. Purification of the planet. Theocratic government worldwide according to their Sharia laws. Sounds kind of bleak to me. Women not allowed to vote, show their faces uncovered in public or to strange men. No education for women. Ahmadinejab is Anti-Semitic and Anti-Democracy. Both threaten what he and his fellow adherents beleive in. This conflict is all about belief systems whether liberals wish to recognize it or not. The truth is still the truth. Either we stand up to this challenge here and now or else we can write off our standards of living and all of our freedoms for they will all be stripped away from us by the terrorists. If our federal government allows the terrorists to dictate the conflict we will eventually lose. My major dissatisfaction so far with the Iraq effort is too few troops deployed and not allowing the military experts run the show. Then Iraq borders could be clamped down to prevent additional forces from entering the country. Allow special forces to operate in country and search and destroy terror cells as found. Put Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah on private notice that if any of their people are caught inside Iraq they will be held directly accountable. If we discover ties directly back to them on financial support or arms they will be held accountable. The longer we wait with Iran the harder it will become to convince them to stop what they are attempting to accomplish. If we forget history we shall regret it. Iran was Persia up into the early part of the last century. Empire has been a very large part of their history; the Medes, the Persians, Assyria, etc., etc.. To totally ignore this history is to risk the security of almost half of the world.
 
~JEBUS

Dude
I thought you were a christian? God fearing,love thy neighbor,peace on earth,turn the other cheek? What the f&ck is wrong with you? Are you insane? We can't even keep ilegals out of this country,how can we keep iraq's border secure. Is your son over there defending us ? Are you to old to enlist and fight . If you are so afraid of loseing your way of life pray to your god . Are'nt you going to heaven anyway ? If so relax let your god sort us out . Just imagine your in heaven,your frolicking in a meadow naked with a butterfly net. Be happy, don't worry you freak.
 
D

Please don't equate Iran (Frormerly Persia) with terrorist Islamists that have taken over the country. Persia has a briliant history of several thousand years. 2,500 years ago, Cyrus the great expanded the Persian Empire with humanity and passion. He created first federal and secular government system with treating member nations fairly. He liberated enslaved Jews after he entered Bobylon and helped them to go back to their homeland and rebuilt their temple. Old Testement praises him as Massiah of the God. He issued the world first declaration of human rights (today hung in UN). Freedom of worship and commerce was allowed in the vast Persian Empire from India to Egypt. Unfortunately Arab Moslems occupied Persia 1400 years ago and forced their religion on Persians. Women enjoyed more rights in Persia than any other place in the world. In second Islamists invation 28 years ago, Shia fundamentalists after their victory against secular government of Shah (an US ally) could ot take away all rights the women had. Saudis women (their fundamentalist government is an US ally)even don't have have right to drive and have no rights to participate in social and political life. Even in Islamic regime of Iran more than 50% of university graduates are women. Iranians Americans are the most educated ethnic groups in US. The Iranians will evantually get rid of themselve from the Islamic Tyrranny and will rejoin the world community as a properous member.

..I was contemplating posting the same general reply theme
{as "Doorman"}..if not in those exact words.
 
..It 'boils-down-to'.. would God allow His prophetic Word
to be nullified; including, allowing Israel and the 'Western
World' to be overrun by the Islamic fanatics, simply because
we {the U.S.} decided that our $10 billion, estimated monthly
cost, of {the canard} "defending the civilized world against
radical Muslim terrorism" wasn't worth the cost?!
 
..Perhaps you haven't noticed that the "Shiites" and "Sunni" Mus-
lims pretty much hate each others' guts, and when one totals up
the populations/geo-political strengths of both throughout the
'Greater' Middle-East {including, Iran}..short of, and in contrast
to, a monolithic Muslim archfoe-enemy, even our complete with-
drawal from Iraq, would likely result in a further bloodbath {per-
haps even on a greater scale} of two different Muslim groups, that
in the end, would likely put them even further removed from being
any imagined/ginned-up {by some} "threat"!
 
..I would think that a sizable percentage of patriotic Americans
would tell you.. that, in real-world terms, the $10 billion a month
that we're now spending in the greater Iraq region {including, our
Persian Gulf naval-armada, & support facilities} is a Much Greater
"Threat" to our status as a world-power, than any feared {future}
terrorist attack, post, 9-11-2001!
 
..Keep in mind, that the recent Minnesota bridge collapse {killing
circa, 13 innocents} and obviously Not terrorist-related; yet, if
only a small fraction of that {estimated} $10 billion a month which
we're now spending on Iraq and environs, "fighting terrorism," had
been assigned to our collapsing U.S. infrastructure, those Minneso-
tans' might still be 'with us' today!
 
..Even the Virginia Tech mass murderer, was a crazed lone Korean
national {who perhaps should've been deported beforehand} and
whose only connection to 'worldwide-Islamic-terrorism,' was Only
in the mind of his own crazy anti-social head!
 
..If anything, when one totals up the longstanding non-chalant attitude
of the Bush admin. Re. our pourous southern borders; plus, the many-
decades-old-policy of our Not-so-savvy, U.S. State Department and
U.S. Congress, allowing 'third and fourth-world' immigrants..{Many
of whom are Muslim!} as welcomed American immigrants; one should
keep in mind, that.. while Not underestimating the desires of some of
our philosophical foreign and domestic enemies to want to do us some
real {potential} harm; otherwise, the quotation applies: "We have found
the enemy, and, it is US!"
 
{P.s., For the record, I do not 'rule out'..nor should we, the usage
and projected-power of our military forces {including, "special-ops"
soldiers} when our intelligence-sources develop sound evidence of
hostile nations and 'political' groups {mostly foreign} of 'hostile-
intent'.. of whatever form it may take!}

To Doorman, and et. al: I am merely pointing out to one and all that to ignore past history is foolish at best and disastrous at worst. To think that we face a "weak" opponent abroad is to court disaster in the future for complacency will rule the day.
 
As soon as we withdraw our troops from Iraq, before resolving the situation there, the terrorists will begin planning on attacks on our own soil. There is no if, simply a when.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I believe I'm going to heaven. I have family and friends who may not be as fortunate who will be living in a world of fear. I would prefer to stand up and at least try to alert people to reality so that that scenario can be altered.
 
God knows what choices we shall all make. Perhaps His prophecy only comes to pass as spoken if America stands up and takes a stand against terrorism? Perhaps the end of days comes quicker if I shut up and we succomb to terrorism and I get to go home to heaven sooner. That would prevent me from reaching out to more people for Christ, which I do not want to have happen.
 
I do not believe that Israel will ever be obliterated by the Arabs or anyone else. They are the focal point of history whether we like it or not.
 
Gamma, don't try to lay ALL of the nonchalant blame on the Bush administrtion! Clinton is equally to blame along with Bush Sr, Reagan, etc., etc.. It has been a joke for decades left to fester because of complacency. "The oceans are our defense shield!" Well, it has to get fixed today and without alot of dithering over how much it will cost in $$$. Are they putting a price on human lives that will be lost if they do not secure our borders? I do not think many in Washington think about the lives of constituents, they only consider their own selves.
 
~JEBUS

Listen Bozo.
You are sounding like a scared little boy. You want to get the word out so you can save souls for Christ? Even if it costs a few hundred thousand unsaved towelheads right? Ok well then, that is a worthy cause.
Thank god your here . Maybe if we just nuke small areas in the middle east we could get rid of those bad people .There might be a few inocent hell bound sub humans that might die but it will be worth it .Just think of all the souls for christ we could save. You label them pal and i'll shoot them. YEE HAWWW. COM ON BOYS SATTLE UP!!!
D

Doorman, what in the world are you talking about? You misread what I post. Too many lives will be lost world-wide if this country does not wake up in time, not just here in this country. I am not scared, I am simply pointing out that liberal attitudes towards terrorism will cost all of us more than what is being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. Peace to you, and read more slowly. :)
 
~JEBUS

Hey Jebus
 
First, I haven't read the rest of your post yet. I imagine I probably will, but have not had the time yet.
 
Second, this response though it will not be fully developed also relates to our other conversation we are having at ItsYourTurn.com. I hope to be able to provide a good response for that topic later today.
 
Revelation 13:11
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
 
A horn represents a form of governmental power when used within prophetical books like that of Daniel and Revelation as well as elsewhere. I can build substance to this statement in a latter post if you would like me to.
 
Now for the question.
 
Can you think of any country on earth today that is ran by two opposing forms of government where the people get to elect whom they will having in leadership. A country that appears to be focused on "peace and safety" like a "gentle giant" while being quick to show it's power of hostility whenever anyone chooses to make a stand that is other than what they would DICTATE!????
 
You mention elsewhere that people like Hitler and Stalin used such tactics to lead communisom in their time. I wonder if a rose by any other name is still a rose.
 
Happy Sabbath
IBIJ
 
PS:
1 Thessalonians 5:3
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
 

Well, after a little pondering I created a short list of nations that might fit the bill of having two forms of government that may oppose each other.
 
* Iran
* China
* Russia(?)
* Sudan(?)
 
These would have the capacity for one part of the government to overrule the other part and then take action. In Iran it is the Supreme Ruling Council(I believe) that can chuck out the rest of the government if they say, became too liberal in their actions. In China it would be the Party that can chuck the government and become repressive. Russia is questionable yet retains much of communism party.
The Sudan gets thrown in due to its volatility.
 
~JEBUS

Jebus,
 
I must admit that you are being very civil. I figured i would get alittle rise out of you with my ,some might say,rude reply's. That being said ,I also supposed you were doing the same with your posting of this topic and your comments. BUT,
I cannot for the life of me understand how you can say you follow the teachings of Jesus and encourage me to kill terrorists. That is what you are doing.
 
D

..{To answer, "DOORMAN," Non-definitively}.. Though no one
asked me specifically, if you 'google': 'Christian justification for
going to war'; you'll find several dozens-of-pages {and with their
corresponding links} arguing Both the 'pro' and 'con' side, of the
question that you posed.
 
..Which further goes to show, that even a number of important 'life-
and death' issues are such, that.. 'The-Powers-that-Be' {if you will}
allow man{kind} to work-out/argue over, the 'nitty-gritty' 'details'!
 
..This phenomena even applies to believers disagreeing Re. various
important Scripture concepts{!?}.."Go figure!?"..as they say.

Hi Jebus
 
"Can you think of any country on earth today that is ran by two opposing forms of government where the people get to elect whom they will having in leadership. A country that appears to be focused on "peace and safety" like a "gentle giant" while being quick to show it's power of hostility whenever anyone chooses to make a stand that is other than what they would DICTATE!????"
 
I gave you several ingredients to put together not just one. I'll accept the fact that these countries do indeed have opposing forces, but then how many of these self same contries dare to...
 
1. Pretend to be focused on "peace and safety" while aggressively punishing those who disagree with their governmental stance across the world?
 
2. How many of the above mentioned countries hold actual elections to determine which party will lead their government, and then accept the decisions as they are handed out?
 
What your looking for is some type of free country that ignores problems from within while handing out death blows to other countries who choose not to follow their forced directives. Any come to mind now?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

You must be angling for the United States?
 
~JEBUS

Because I follow the teachings of Jesus does that mean that I cannot ever defend my family from attack? I should turn the "other cheek" and allow them to be murdered? How would I be showing how much I love and cherish them? All authorities are given to us by God. He instructs us to be obedient to our government and to do good. If my government needs me to serve in defense of my nation then as a good citizen, and Christian, I must serve. I give "to Ceasar" what is his and give to Christ what is His. I do not kill innocent people nor engage in torture. I respect those who refuse to fight as long as they are willing to serve jail time if necessary. We must accept the consequences of all of our actions. My hat went off to Cassius Clay when he refused to serve in the military and allowed himself to be put in jail. He lives according to his faith. We all ought to so live.
 
If we want to criticize our government then we ought to step up and get personally involved in the democratic process or else shut up and feed our faces in the trough. It is that simple. I read entirely too many posts, articles, news stories where it is complain, complain, complain without substantive alternatives that have a modest hope of actually working in real life. I direct everyones attention to my earlier post on the death of a good friend. It applies to these types of threads.
Have a wonderful Lord's Day!
 
~Jebus

Yes, or as you put it elsewhere... the policemen of the world.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

YOU SAID:
Because I follow the teachings of Jesus does that mean that I cannot ever defend my family from attack? I should turn the "other cheek" and allow them to be murdered? How would I be showing how much I love and cherish them?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Do families exist in Iraq? Do people love one another in Iraq? What was your question again?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Luke 6:28-30
28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
 
YOU SAID:
I give "to Ceasar" what is his and give to Christ what is His.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Can we serve our country without violence? Is there a difference between taxes and murder?
 
YOU SAID:
I do not kill innocent people nor engage in torture.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Ever hear of a place called Vietnam? You really think similar things arenâ019t taking place in Iraq?
 
YOU SAID:
If we want to criticize our government then we ought to step up and get personally involved in the democratic process or else shut up and feed our faces in the trough. It is that simple.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Democratic process? Thatâ019s become little more than a joke in our time. Just as God fearing people refused to open their eyes to what Hitler was doing then, we are choosing to be blind now.
 
YOU SAID:
Have a wonderful Lord's Day!
 
MY RESPONSE:
Since the passage in Revelaion that refers to â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D does not identify it either by number or day how do you know the â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D is Sunday rather than Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri â013 or Heaven forbid â013 The Sabbath?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 

May I ask how you arrive at "aggressively" punishing people is what the Americans are all about? What do we "dictate" to people? That they have an option to self-determine how they will be ruled? That is harsh, you are correct. Pardon us if we make mistakes along the way but at least we try to give various countries a shot at freedom. I guess it is a matter of people elsewhere not actually knowing personally how we live in America. They get to be fed by the media who is extremely impartial. I know this response will not be very popular but that is the way it is.
 
I grant you that the "experts" screwed up in their gameplan once they kicked Hussein out; their culture needed to be studied whole lot better. But as was noted on Meet The Press time must be given to this new concept in Iraq of ruling themselves in a coalition of some sort. Politically they are a mess right now. The various groups have to realize that they have to compromise or else the country splits apart and Iran will control the southern oil fields. Sounds good to me.
 
~JEBUS

The person who stated that this was a "Holy War" (Al Quida?) was quite right. Ever since the time of Abraham there has been unrest in this part of the world. And until Christ returns this unrest will continue. Since we "Cristian American's" are so sure that the "God's Children" are in Israel today, we enforce policies that protect them (including war) that position us plainly on their side. Since we have chosen Israel as our allies, certainly we will incure the wrath of Hana's off-spring leaving us with mouth's wide open when events like 9/11 take place. I'm certainly not happy with what took place on that day, but neither will I choose to be blind as to what is really taking place.
 
RE: Agressively punishing people... I'm not sure how you cannot arrive at that point. You yourself identified us as the "policemen of the world". It would be my position that by your own definition I have quite clearly arrived.
 
RE: Freedom... If I tell you that you are free to live your life as you wish as long as you don't break my rules, would you see that as freedom? Freedom means that anybody anywhere is "free" to be "dumb" (aka freedumb). Okay, play on words there and we all hope people won't be stupid with freedom, but right here in Americe we see that taking place on a daily bases do we not? Yet to tell another country they are free to live as we regulate is not freedom but one of the worst forms of dictatorship dressed up to look like something it's not.
 
RE: "how we live in America"... Not only do they not know how we live in America, they DON'T CARE!!!!! Who are we to presume upon them a care that does not exist within them? And as far as media, please, don't get me started. Certianly you and I can agree that we in America are freedumb as it relates to the news media.
 
RE: Lsst paragraph... you last paragraph contained alot of "Have To's" that we policemen appear to be deciding for this country. Do we have the right to impose "Have To's" on another country? Will we be able to remove ourselves from the position of the "world's policemen" while imposing "Have To's", or attempting to? Would not "Have To" be the same as dictating and not at all freedom?
 
Cheers
IBIJ

You err in assuming that becuase we are the "policeman" that we must therefore be punishers. It does not follow. What is the point in God giving us authorities to govern over us if we will not live under them according to His Will? The "have to's" are not handed down by us, they are simple commonsense items that happen to be true. Others have figured it out, why not you and the Iraqi's? Settle your differences across a table and allow your country to remain intact. Do not settle them and watch while your neighbors cut it up piecemeal for themselves. That quite simple except for ethnic and religious prejudice which is being flamed ever hotter by Iran and probably Syria too.
 
What basis would you use to deny that the Jewish people are still God's Chosen People? That will be interesting to read.
 
I am not happy that democracy is not progressing more quickly in Iraq, however, I am also cognizant of the fact that they have two strikes against them from the time that this option opened up for them to follow. Their immediate and past history does not contain any threads leading back to times when they can remember ruling themselves even remotely democratically. This makes this road very rough and long. Is it a worthy cause? Of course it is. Are we committing mistakes along the way? Sure, but why quit? Because it is hard to accomplish? I notice the liberals are quite free with their advice, "This is unwinnable no matter what we do." Terrorists already have won this battle right there. I am saddened by the lack of will in my countrymen. Weaned on 30 minute resolution of problems on TV shows every night they believe that is real life. Quite sad. I am glad that Jehovah is in ultimate control of history for He does not give up nor change His mind.
 
~JEBUS

YOU SAID:
You err in assuming that becuase we are the "policeman" that we must therefore be punishers. It does not follow.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I only pay attention to what America IS doing. If that is an err, then an err it shall be.
 
YOU SAID:
What is the point in God giving us authorities to govern over us if we will not live under them according to His Will? The "have to's" are not handed down by us, they are simple commonsense items that happen to be true. Others have figured it out, why not you and the Iraqi's?
 
MY RESPONSE:
I would venture to bet that there are at least one or two more Americans that hold my position. Nice try at minority isolation smashing though. While your at it can you tell me which Scripture gives America the right to brashly police other nations. Sure, we the right to direct are own though even there we will find a dispute as any time government attempts to legislate morality (aka abortion, smoking, marriage, etc) we are headed for a world of hurt. While I don't support those who would want rulings favoring these ideals I also don't support government regulations upon the same.
 
YOU SAID:
Settle your differences across a table and allow your country to remain intact. Do not settle them and watch while your neighbors cut it up piecemeal for themselves. That quite simple except for ethnic and religious prejudice which is being flamed ever hotter by Iran and probably Syria too.
 
MY RESPONSE:
You really think this war will change any of that?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
YOU SAID:
What basis would you use to deny that the Jewish people are still God's Chosen People? That will be interesting to read.
 
MY RESPONSE:
How about the book of Romans which is a NT scripture for starters. In particular the verses talking about branches that are both cut off and grafted in.
 
YOU SAID:
I am not happy that democracy is not progressing more quickly in Iraq, however, I am also cognizant of the fact that they have two strikes against them from the time that this option opened up for them to follow.
 
MY RESPONSE:
America and Bush? Naw, probably not what you meant.
 
YOU SAID:
Their immediate and past history does not contain any threads leading back to times when they can remember ruling themselves even remotely democratically. This makes this road very rough and long. Is it a worthy cause? Of course it is. Are we committing mistakes along the way? Sure, but why quit?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Because it's not our business?
 
YOU SAID:
Because it is hard to accomplish? I notice the liberals are quite free with their advice, "This is unwinnable no matter what we do."
 
MY RESPONSE:
Which is why we shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Kinda like a cat with a string of yarn.
 
YOU SAID:
Terrorists already have won this battle right there.
 
MY RESPONSE:
This was never a war on terrorism. That sounds good in the presses though.
 
YOU SAID:
I am saddened by the lack of will in my countrymen. Weaned on 30 minute resolution of problems on TV shows every night they believe that is real life. Quite sad.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Did you catch that last episode of Jerico, errrr... never-mind.
 
YOU SAID:
I am glad that Jehovah is in ultimate control of history for He does not give up nor change His mind.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Finally something I can agree with. Amen!
 
Cheers
IBIJ