Taken from the Gamma post, this seems to be a point deserving it's own post.
 
JEBUS:
Romans 7:14-23 speaks about this war that goes on continually within our bodies. Verse 20 answers your question to me.
 
GOD's WORD:
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ014this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
 
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
Romans 7:14-23
 
MY RESPONSE:
So you would conclude that no matter what a believer does it is not them doing it rather it is sin living in them that does it?
 
GOD's WORD:
20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7
 
MY RESPONSE:
Doesn't this leave us in a position of not being responsible for our actions no matter how good or evil they might be? All I have to do is believe in Christ and I can do whatever I want blaming it on sin within my all the while? Is this not an extremely dangerous stand to make no matter what denomination one might be a part of?
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
PS: When your done with your CORR games you could logon to Caissa for the purpose of keeping these chats going until your account expires. I plan to do much the same thing when my time comes as I do not believe paying higher prices for a broken interface is something I will be willing to do. In my opinion they should have left things the way they were.

Hey... I just saw a point I'd like more information about from you Jebus. In the verses you quoted was this one...
 
22For in my inner being I delight in God's law
 
What is "God's Law"? What should this mean to believers today?
Romans 7
 
Cheers
IBIJ

I do believe that reference was in response to gamma's comments about guilt over sinning. I did not say that it was perfectly alright to sin. We have freedom of choice and we reap what we sow. Therefore, we must choose wisely and ought to select more spiritual choices than physical choices most of the time. This Romans passage talks about how even when I know spiritually that I ought to be praying daily that physically I end up doing other things that distract my mind from doing this thing that I want to do. I suppose we would call it "bad" habits tending to override my desire to do the newer "good" habits that are spritual. Thus the need to feed ourselves spritually each day with God's Word, renewing our minds daily. We live in a war zone, we need to not forget that. Jesus created the beach head and we must push the frontlines into occupied territory. I will post about Romans 7:22 a bit later today.
 
~JEBUS

Okay, though I may not word it the same way, I largely agree with what your saying just as long as we don't dismiss ourselves from being responsible for the actions that we choose.
 
"The devil made me do it"
 
Is a cop out that some choose to embrace and I was going to be surprised if you were among their camp.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

I hope that this comes out the way I am thinking it through...The Law of God is perfect and perpetual. It would appear that He gave it to Adam in form in Genesis 2:16-17 when He spoke of the tree. He spoke of it in form with Joshua in Gen 9:6. Of course He gave it to Israel in Exodus. In Psalm 78:5 He mentions it once more. In Matt 5:18-19 He reminds us of its perpetualness and in vs 28 expounds on where the law really applies to us, in our hearts. Romans 5:12-14 establishes that the law was needed to impute sin to each man. Romans 13:8-10 He tells us that genuine love fulfills the law. In I Cor 9:19-23 Paul writes that we are to be willing to do whatever it takes to reach out to anyone so that they can hear the Gospel message. He also describes how we are to run this "race" that we are in so that we may attain our goal.
In Galatians 5:13-26 God instructs us on why we can be out from under the law. He also instructs us in I John 4:7-21 what "love" truly is and how to be known as His children.
All of the above is needed in order to understand that the Law is here until God finishes His work. Believers are not under Law because of Grace. We now have His Law written upon our hearts and we are enabled to follow that Law through the Spirit of God. Yet, inevitably we shall stumble and sin by failing to walk perfectly. At these times we must repent and we shall be forgiven. As long as we live in this life we shall not be able to follow the Law perfectly due to our carnal bodies. The Law is not crucifed by Christ, we are. Paul goes to some length to argue the legal point of all this in Romans. He shows how that any law only applies to anyone until they die. He shows this through the marriage law also. In the same fashion we who died with Christ are no longer under the Law due to our "death" in Christ. Now we are able to become married to someone/something new, Grace in Christ and His Law of Grace and Love. Baptism publically shows this taking place when we are immersed in the water. A new creation upon arising from the water we all have a new "husband." I hope this is remotely close to what you were anticipating from me.
 
~JEBUS

YOU SAID:
I hope that this comes out the way I am thinking it through...The Law of God is perfect and perpetual.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen!
 
WEBSTER:
Perpetual:
1 a : continuing forever : EVERLASTING <perpetual motion> b (1) : valid for all time <a perpetual right> (2) : holding (as an office) for life or for an unlimited time
2 : occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued <perpetual problems>
3 : blooming continuously throughout the season
 
Perfect:
1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS <a perfect diamond> b : satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d : faithfully reproducing the original; specifically : LETTER-PERFECT e : legally valid
3 a : PURE, TOTAL b : lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE c obsolete : SANE d : ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL <enjoys perfect happiness> e : of an extreme kind : UNMITIGATED <a perfect brat> <an act of perfect foolishness>
 
MY RESPONSE:
If this explains the Law of God, then how can it possibly have been put aside?
 
YOU SAID:
It would appear that He gave it to Adam in form in Genesis 2:16-17 when He spoke of the tree.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen again!
 
YOU SAID:
He spoke of it in form with Joshua in Gen 9:6.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Gen 9:6
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Which side of this discussion are you on? Amen again!!!!!
 
YOU SAID:
Of course He gave it to Israel in Exodus. In Psalm 78:5
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Psalm 78:5
5 He decreed statutes for Jacob
and established the law in Israel,
which he commanded our forefathers
to teach their children,
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen! And Amen!!!!
 
YOU SAID:
He mentions it once more. In Matt 5:18-19
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Matt 5:18-19
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen again!!!! Hey, I like this conversation. J
 
YOU SAID:
He reminds us of its perpetualness and in vs 28
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Matt 5:28
I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Iâ019m not sure how that verse relates. Yet if you meant to say Matt:5:18â026
GODâ019s WORD:
Matt 5:18
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Then again I say Amen and add that the next verses then tell us the results of not following these teachings and/or teaching others to do the same.
 
YOU SAID:
expounds on where the law really applies to us, in our hearts.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I think you missed quoting a verse here, but Iâ019m tracking. Finally I have a question thoughâ026 how can the Law of God apply in our hearts if it does not also apply within our actions?
 
YOU SAID:
Romans 5:12-14 establishes that the law was needed to impute sin to each man.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinnedâ014 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen again with an emphasis on â01CBut sin is not taken into account when there is no law.â01D If we did not have the Law of God to follow we would not understand what sin is.
 
YOU SAID:
Romans 13:8-10 He tells us that genuine love fulfills the law.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Romans 13:8-10
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Absolutely, did you notice the direct reference to the 10 Commandments here? The last 6 teach us how to love our fellow man and the first 4 teach us how to love God. Love is indeed the fulfillment of the Law. I do not keep Sabbath out of a ritualistic regulation but rather because I love God and desire to receive His blessings upon my life and marriage.
YOU SAID:
In I Cor 9:19-23 Paul writes that we are to be willing to do whatever it takes to reach out to anyone so that they can hear the Gospel message. He also describes how we are to run this "race" that we are in so that we may attain our goal.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
I Cor 9:19-23
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Yes, but this is the Mosaic Covenant. If this were referring to the 10 Commandments wouldnâ019t it directly contradict your previous reference to Romans 13:8-10, not to mention others as well?
 
YOU SAID:
In Galatians 5:13-26 God instructs us on why we can be out from under the law.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Galatians 5:13-26
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
MY RESPONSE:
Again I ask, how do these verses and those in your Romans verse above stay in cohesion if they are speaking of the same law?
GODâ019s WORD:
Galatians 5:13-26
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
MY RESPONSE:
I repeat this reference because I would like to draw an interest to part of it. If the 10 Commandments have been set aside, then how do you explain his direct reference to it thru the following quote?
â01CThe entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Notice this directly states that it is â01Csummedâ01D or a summation of and not the entire essence of.
YOU SAID:
He also instructs us in I John 4:7-21 what "love" truly is and how to be known as His children.
MY RESPONSE:
I read the entire passage above and agree with it. Only one point that Iâ019d like to expound upon.
GODâ019s WORD:
1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
MY RESPONSE:
Have we not heard previously how we are to both love God and man? Has not our example been directly pointed to the 10 Commandments?
 
YOU SAID:
All of the above is needed in order to understand that the Law is here until God finishes His work.
MY RESPONSE:
This is where the 1000 year concept comes in.
GODâ019s WORD:
Exodus 20:6
but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
MY RESPONSE:
And considering that we are not even to 200 generations yet, this basically is saying forever. Yeah, there is an inference their. Okay, for much much longer than you or I will be alive not counting the coming resurrection.
YOU SAID:
Believers are not under Law because of Grace.
MY RESPONSE:
After everything that you have said above how do you reach this conclusion? What Scriptures?
YOU SAID:
We now have His Law written upon our hearts and we are enabled to follow that Law through the Spirit of God.
MY RESPONSE:
Wait, I thought you said we werenâ019t under the Law. Now we are following a Law that we are not under? Further, as Iâ019ve said elsewhere, if His Law is written upon our hearts how can it possibly be the case that we are not also representing it in action?
YOU SAID:
Yet, inevitably we shall stumble and sin by failing to walk perfectly. At these times we must repent and we shall be forgiven. As long as we live in this life we shall not be able to follow the Law perfectly due to our carnal bodies.
MY RESPONSE:
Granted.
YOU SAID:
The Law is not crucifed by Christ, we are. Paul goes to some length to argue the legal point of all this in Romans. He shows how that any law only applies to anyone until they die. He shows this through the marriage law also.
MY RESPONSE:
Granted again, but you yourself just said our carnal nature is not yet dead. As weâ019ve spoken of elsewhere, baptism is not actual death but a shadow of things to come.
YOU SAID:
In the same fashion we who died with Christ are no longer under the Law due to our "death" in Christ.
MY RESPONSE:
But we havenâ019t yet died, else the carnal nature theory would be incorrect. Which is it?
YOU SAID:
Now we are able to become married to someone/something new,
MY RESPONSE:
Have we â01Cbecomeâ01D or are we â01Cin the process of becomingâ01D a new creation. If we have already â01Cbecomeâ01D then we would be able to live perfectly as the carnal nature has indeed once and for all been crucified. Yet, I find myself in a position of crucifying the carnal nature on a daily basis with a need for such more on some days than others.
YOU SAID:
Grace in Christ and His Law of Grace and Love.
MY RESPONSE:
When did Jesus advance a â01CLaw of Graceâ01D that superceded the Law of God; especially in light of everything that you said above?
YOU SAID:
Baptism publically shows this taking place when we are immersed in the water. A new creation upon arising from the water we all have a new "husband."
MY RESPONSE:
Then we are able to be perfect and without sin after baptism before resurrection? Doesnâ019t this contradict some of your previous points you have made in this very post?
YOU SAID:
I hope this is remotely close to what you were anticipating from me.
MY RESPONSE:
I think you were further ahead before you started. There are points here I greatly disagree with and those that I do agree with. The other post had the same.
Cheers
IBIJ