Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore, the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.(Exodus 20:8-11)
 
The Sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of our week. It always has been this day and always will be this day at least until a new heaven and new earth are formed by God.
 
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore, the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
Here in verse 11 is given the reason for the observance of the Sabbath day. God, in creating, did all of the work in six days, and He rested on the seventh and hallowed that day. Therefore, the basis is ceremonial or, as we could say today, it was theological or religious.
After Christ had healed the man at the Pool of Bethesda, the religious rulers accused Him of breaking the Mosaic Law because He had done it on the Sabbath day. Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work"(John 5:17). In other words, we are not observing a Sabbath day any longer; we are working!
 
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out from there through a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.(Deut 5:15)
 
Here God had brought Israel out of bondage from Egypt, and because of this they were to observe the sabbath day. They must rest one per week, a humanitarian reason to observe. Was this not what Christ had in mind when he told His disciples to go and pluck ears of grain on the Sabbath? Our Lord's response when challenged on this point was:
 
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
(Mark 2:27)
 
That is a flat statement of the humanitarian aspect of this entire question about the sabbath day.
 
To whom does the Sabbath day belong to? Gentiles or Israelites? Or both? Since the sabbath day actually originated in creation one can easily conclude that all primitive nations of the world would have observed it in at least some form. But there is no eveidence that this is so.
 
Look at Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations...
 
God marked this day as a peculiar sign between Himself and nation Israel.
 
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death...
(Exodus 31:14)
 
They were cautioned, it was very serious business, was it not? Their lives were forfeit for defiling the sabbath day. Then in verses 16 and 17:
 
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever...
 
Oh, that seems to nail down "who" this sabbath day was intended for. The Israelites are to observe this sabbath forever. Just like physical circumcision this ceremonial day belongs to nation Israel.
 
Do any of you want to be under the law of the sabbath today? If you are keeping it today and you do any sort of labor during it, then you have defiled the entire day and you ought to be taken out and stoned to death as stipulated in Numbers 15:32-36. What sort of restrictions are we talking about today?
In Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Can't drive your car to church, that's kindling fire. Don't cook any hot meals since this is kindling a fire. Verse 23-25 of Exodus 16 tells of the prohibition against cooking at all. There can be no gathering from your garden either. Verse 29 of this same chapter nails you down to not even leaving your home to worship with other brothers and sisters of faith! The Israelites created so much minutiae on what one could not do on the sabbath day that it lead ultimately to what Peter declared in the first Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:10. The Jewish people had not been able to keep the sabbath day with all of its regulations, why expect the Gentile disciples to be able to? Obviously, the answer was going to be "Not!"
Every NT commandment is repeated in the epistles except the one for the sabbath day. In fact, the church is warned against keeping this day as we shall see.
Keep this in mind, Christian! On the sabbath day Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior was dead and in the grave. In Matthew 28:1 we read:
 
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week...
 
Not just the end of a day, but the end of the sabbath!
 
Now we come to Pentecost when the church was born. Which day of the week was Pentecost? Not on the last day of the week. The church met on the first day of the week which was a recognition of the import of this day. I Cor 16:2 indicates the import of the first day of the week. The church was a new creation of God. It does not belong to the old creation. What day of the week was John in the Spirit while writing down the Revelation of Jesus Christ? It was not the sabbath day.
 
In Matthew 11:28 Christ says "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, Ill give you rest." In other words, He will give you a sabbath in which you can rest in Him, your Savior. Every day you can rest in Him, your sabbath.
 
This post is for you IBIJ, I hope that you will study it out on your own and realize the Truth. Another Truth is this: Communion was instituted by Christ on what day? How frequently did this day occur? Don't you think that we ought to obey our Lord and observe communion as He said? Enough said. Peace and grace to all believers, walk in the Light and love your brethren in Christ!
 
~JEBUS

Hey Jebus
 
Thanks for the e-mail. Once again Iâ019m impressed by the thoroughness of your thoughts. Whether we agree or not, you have taken time to think these things thru for yourself. One cannot ask for more than that. Yet, more than that was offered thru a thorough written explanation of your positions. Iâ019m honored that you considered my insights on this topic important enough to take your time and attention in rebuttal. Since this post is specifically for my learning and growth may I assume you would welcome questions of inquiry for the points you have made? I hope so, for that is exactly what I have provided. You can trust that I am listening and will continue to seek full truth as I have always chosen to do.
 
Your friend
IBIJ
 
Now on to my questions to your post.
 
YOU SAID:
The Sabbath Day or The Lord's Day---Which?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
Revelation 1:10
 
MY RESPONSE:
â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D is mentioned one time (Rev 1:10) in the NIV translation and not at all in KJV of Scripture.
 
â01CSabbath Dayâ01D is mentioned 23 times NIV & 48 times KJV in both OT & NT books.
 
With the above facts given here are my questions for this part.
1. If the â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D is so critical for us today, why is it only mentioned once within NIV & KJV translations of OT & NT information?
 
2. Is there any indication as to which exact day is the Lordâ019s Day? Given the one verse that is available on this matter, it would not appear to be the case. Using the term â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D, since that is how you have titled this topic can you help me understand more clearly which exact day the â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D is?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore, the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.(Exodus 20:8-11)
YOU SAID:
The Sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of our week. It always has been this day and always will be this day at least until a new heaven and new earth are formed by God.
 
MY RESPONSE:
You are correct. To take this a step further we readâ026
 
GODâ019s WORD:
but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments
Exodus 20:6
 
MY RESPONSE:
Okay, several questions here.
 
1. How long is a generation and how many generations have passed since when these words were spoken given that it has been 2000 years since the timing of these events? If my calculations are correct and we give a generation 10 years (though I believe it is 40) how many generations would we have come up with by now? (2000 / 10 = 200) â013 What happened to the other, at least, 800 generations?
2. Why does the verse say â01Cthose who love meâ01D instead of â01CChildren of Israelâ01D if this is supposed to be addressed specifically to the â01CChildren of Israelâ01D
3. Iâ019ve seen â01Cthose who love me and keep my commandmentsâ01D used elsewhere in Scriptureâ026. (to be continued)
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ014those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12:17
 
3 Cont â013 If the commandments are a thing of the past then why are they mentioned in the last chapter of the book? Also, what two things in the above verse is Lucifer enraged at? Why isnâ019t He just enraged with those that love Jesus if obeying Godâ019s commandments is no longer relevant to todayâ019s world? And if Godâ019s commandments are relevant to todayâ019s world then donâ019t we need to focus on following all of them rather than just the oneâ019s we prefer to keep?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
James 2:10
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 15:3
 
GODâ019s WORD:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore, the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11
 
YOU SAID:
Here in verse 11 is given the reason for the observance of the Sabbath day. God, in creating, did all of the work in six days, and He rested on the seventh and hallowed that day. Therefore, the basis is ceremonial or, as we could say today, it was theological or religious.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Okay, I accept the whole idea of a 6 day creation with a seventh day rest, though there are indeed some who call themselves Christian that would dispute the literal day theory even though Godâ019s Word does indeed back it up.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Genesis 2:2-3
 
MY RESPONSE:
Given this, and the fact that Iâ019m hoping neither of us find God resting because He was somehow tired or warn out from the previous six days. How does this event become ceremonial in nature when there were no living Jews at the time of this event?
 
MY RESPONSE 2:
Somehow the next paragraph is a smooth transition from the last in your opinion. Iâ019m not exactly sure how that is the case, but none-the-less we move on.
 
YOU SAID:
After Christ had healed the man at the Pool of Bethesda, the religious rulers accused Him of breaking the Mosaic Law because He had done it on the Sabbath day. Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work"(John 5:17). In other words, we are not observing a Sabbath day any longer; we are working!
 
MY RESPONSE:
If Jesus was deeming the Sabbath Day no longer worthy of recognition, why didnâ019t He simply say that? What was the occupation of Jesus? Wasnâ019t He a carpenter? Do we ever find an account of Jesus carrying out His occupation on the Sabbath Day? What kind of work was He doing that the religious rulers were upset at Him for?
GODâ019s WORD:
11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
Matthew 12:11-12
 
MY RESPONSE:
If I read the above statement correctly, one would conclude, â01Cit is lawful to do good on the Sabbathâ01D would they not? Jesus work didnâ019t involve carpentry but doing good for His fellow man without thought of reward or merit. Isnâ019t that a much different type of work than carrying out oneâ019s occupational livelihood?
 
Further, is it safe to say within the words given above that Jesus fully recognized and acknowledged the Sabbath while teaching the religious rulers how their legalization of the Sabbath was in error?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out from there through a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.(Deut 5:15)

YOUR RESPONSE:
Here God had brought Israel out of bondage from Egypt, and because of this they were to observe the sabbath day. They must rest one per week, a humanitarian reason to observe. Was this not what Christ had in mind when he told His disciples to go and pluck ears of grain on the Sabbath? Our Lord's response when challenged on this point was:

GODâ019s WORD:
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
(Mark 2:27)
 
YOUR RESPONSE:
That is a flat statement of the humanitarian aspect of this entire question about the sabbath day.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Well, yes Jesus did say the above but the entire verse has not been quoted.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2
 
MY RESPONSE:
The above verse starts with â01Cthen he said to themâ01D. The â01Cthenâ01D implies that something was said previously. So what was that something?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
Mark 2
 
MY RESPONSE:
Isnâ019t Jesus here saying that the needs of the people are more important than legalized traditions? While He is indeed saying that I find it difficult to understand how Jesus is within the same verse somehow nullifying the Sabbath Day. Especially when the very next verse saysâ026
 
GODâ019s WORD:
28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
Mark 2
 
YOU SAID:
To whom does the Sabbath day belong to? Gentiles or Israelites? Or both? Since the sabbath day actually originated in creation one can easily conclude that all primitive nations of the world would have observed it in at least some form. But there is no eveidence that this is so.
 
MY RESPONSE:
â01CPrimitive Nationsâ01D? If we are talking about the first 5 books of Genesis Iâ019m not sure how much more primitive you can go. Please expand on this concept of â01CPrimitive Nationsâ01D.
 
YOU SAID:
Look at Exodus 31:13
 
GODâ019s WORD
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations...
 
YOU SAID:
God marked this day as a peculiar sign between Himself and nation Israel.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Yes, but did He limit it to this specific sign alone? Also, are there Sabbath events other than â01CSabbath Dayâ019sâ01D?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death...
(Exodus 31:14)
 
YOUR SAID:
They were cautioned, it was very serious business, was it not? Their lives were forfeit for defiling the sabbath day. Then in verses 16 and 17:
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever...

YOU SAID:
Oh, that seems to nail down "who" this sabbath day was intended for. The Israelites are to observe this sabbath forever. Just like physical circumcision this ceremonial day belongs to nation Israel.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Where does it thus say that this was therefore the only purpose of the Sabbath? Do not the words â01Cseems to nail downâ01D infer speculation rather than direct translation? Given that your thoughts do not seem to directly appear within Godâ019s Word I am left with having to presume so.
 
YOU SAID:
Do any of you want to be under the law of the sabbath today? If you are keeping it today and you do any sort of labor during it, then you have defiled the entire day and you ought to be taken out and stoned to death as stipulated in Numbers 15:32-36.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Again, is there not a grave difference between practicing my livelihood and doing good?
 
YOU SAID:
What sort of restrictions are we talking about today?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
In Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
 
YOU SAID:
Can't drive your car to church, that's kindling fire. Don't cook any hot meals since this is kindling a fire. Verse 23-25 of Exodus 16 tells of the prohibition against cooking at all. There can be no gathering from your garden either. Verse 29 of this same chapter nails you down to not even leaving your home to worship with other brothers and sisters of faith! The Israelites created so much minutiae on what one could not do on the sabbath day
 
MY RESPONSE:
Isnâ019t this thought pattern what the religious rulers of the day were using to make the Sabbath a burden rather than a blessing? Here is a very important statement that you made.
 
YOU SAID:
The Israelites created so much minutiae on what one could not do on the sabbath day
 
MY RESPONSE:
Who created the â01Cminutiaeâ01D? What was Godâ019s original intent of the day? Would it be safe to say that His original intent would have been kin to what He Himself did on the very first creation Sabbath?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
45One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also."
 
46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Luke 11
YOU SAID:
that it lead ultimately to what Peter declared in the first Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:10.
GODâ019s WORD:
10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
Acts 15:10
MY RESPONSE:
Yes, there is indeed a dispute taking place. I wonder what is being disputed?
GODâ019s WORD:
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Acts 15:5
MY RESPONSE:
Herein is an apparent lengthy topic in and of itself as when reading Scripture from where I sit there appears to be a huge difference between the â01Claw of Mosesâ01D or the â01CMosaic Lawâ01D and the â01Claw of Godâ01D or the â01C10 Commandmentsâ01D. This verse is indeed teaching that following the Mosaic covenant is no longer necessary as it was indeed nailed to the cross. However, I see no sign of the 10 Commandments having been nailed to the cross with them. Fact is I see Jesus declaring quite the opposite.
GODâ019s WORD:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:15
YOU SAID:
The Jewish people had not been able to keep the sabbath day with all of its regulations, why expect the Gentile disciples to be able to? Obviously, the answer was going to be "Not!"
MY RESPONSE:
Itâ019s the â01Cregulationsâ01D part that Jesus was coming against. He Himself embraced the Sabbath as did His followers. But He did not want to see it as a legalized ritual.
GODâ019s WORD:
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
Luke 4:16
As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Acts 17:2
MY RESPONSE:
Notice the words â01Ccustomâ01D within the above verses from both Jesus and Paul. According to Godâ019s Word this was â01CTHEIRâ01D custom.
YOU SAID:
Every NT commandment is repeated in the epistles except the one for the sabbath day. In fact, the church is warned against keeping this day as we shall see. Keep this in mind, Christian! On the sabbath day Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior was dead and in the grave. In Matthew 28:1 we read:
GODâ019s WORD:
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week...
Matthew 28:1
YOU SAID:
Not just the end of a day, but the end of the sabbath!
GODâ019s WORD:
NIV = 1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. -- Matthew 28:1
NASB = 1(A)Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, (B)Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. -- Matthew 28:1
KJV = 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. -- Matthew 28:1
MY RESPONSE:
3 versions of Scripture only one uses the phrase â01Cend of the Sabbathâ01D. It appears that the one that uses this phrase is not interpreted as you would deem by the other given translations in the way that you would deem best. While the KJV is indeed the most accurate of translations could it be that the difference in language styles might be misunderstood by us and the other translations do indeed demonstrate what the verse would be saying in our modern languages? Even if this isnâ019t the case wouldnâ019t the fact that Jesus is the â01CLord of the Sabbathâ01D has explained earlier in this post signify some special importance tied between God and the Sabbath? And even if that were not the case, wouldnâ019t the fact that Jesus was buried before the Sabbath, because of the Sabbath, while resting on the Sabbath, and resurrecting from the grave the moment the Sabbath was over have some level of importance as is related to the Sabbath?
YOU SAID:
Now we come to Pentecost when the church was born. Which day of the week was Pentecost? Not on the last day of the week. The church met on the first day of the week which was a recognition of the import of this day.
MY RESPONSE:
What Scriptures are you using to solidify this position?
YOU SAID:
I Cor 16:2 indicates the import of the first day of the week.
GODâ019s WORD:
2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
1 Corinthians 16:2
MY RESPONSE:
Do you do the figuring for your bills at church? The above is indeed the time of administration, but does it demonstrate people coming together for a service? Two important points are made in the above information that our worthy of notation.
POINT #1:
WHEN: On the first day of every week
WHAT: set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income
FURTHER: â01Csaving it upâ01D â013 I would infer that if one is to save something up it would still be in their possession instead of being turned over. Since this is an inference on my part I could be wrong.
POINT #2:
WHEN: When I come
WHAT: No collections will have to be made
FURTHER: Seems like he wanted petty details out of the way so he could get down to the business of church (Worshipping, Fellowshipping, Teaching and the like) perhaps because he knew his time would be limited. To that extent, even if they â01Csaved it upâ01D as a group this is still no indication that they also gathered for worship on any given day. To say that this verse demonstrates which day of worship is being utilized would be an inference would it not?
YOU SAID:
The church was a new creation of God. It does not belong to the old creation.
MY RESPONSE:
So people did not gather for worship before the time of Jesus? The creation week was clearly demonstrated from Godâ019s Word. Seems like a â01Cnew creationâ01D of His church would also be clearly demonstrated from the same Word. Can you point me to where this â01Cnew creationâ01D is specifically talked about within Godâ019s Word?
YOU SAID:
What day of the week was John in the Spirit while writing down the Revelation of Jesus Christ? It was not the sabbath day.
GODâ019s WORD:
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
Revelation 1:10
 
MY RESPONSE:
Iâ019ll give you the fact that the above verse does indeed not say the Sabbath. Can you, using Scripture, clearly explain to me what exact day is the â01CLordâ019s Dayâ01D?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
In Matthew 11:28 Christ says "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, Ill give you rest."
 
YOU SAID:
In other words, He will give you a sabbath in which you can rest in Him, your Savior. Every day you can rest in Him, your sabbath.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Okay, so we agree that there is to be a rest day where we cease from our livelihood labors. However, if I did this â01Cevery dayâ01D would I be following God or being lazy? Yes, He indeed gives us rest, but even Jesus kept the Sabbath, why should we be exempt? If your interpretation of the verse is correct then why does Scripture sayâ026
 
GODâ019s WORD:
John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
 
MY RESPONSE:
What exactly are the â01CFatherâ019s commandsâ01D that Jesus is talking about here? If He obeys His Fatherâ019s commands and we obey the commands of Jesus, wouldnâ019t everyone logically end up obeying the same commands?
 
YOU SAID:
This post is for you IBIJ, I hope that you will study it out on your own and realize the Truth.
 
MY RESPONSE
Once again, thank you Jebus for your time in constructing this heartfelt inquisitive post. I in-turn pray that you will study and respond to my questions so that I may glean more understanding of the Truth as a result of your responses.
 
YOU SAID:
Another Truth is this: Communion was instituted by Christ on what day?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Letâ019s see. Looking back on the equation. We both agree with the following.
1. Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday
2. Jesus remained in the grave on the Sabbath (aka Saturday)
3. Jesus was crucified on Good Friday
4. The last supper was the night before which would be Thursday
 
At the last supper he shared the cup and the bread for apparently the first time. Since that was done on Thursday and you are using this as your point for understanding the day of worshipâ026 shouldnâ019t we all be worshipping on Thursday as a conclusion of this position?
 
YOU SAID:
How frequently did this day occur?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Well, the Thursday night last supper only happened once.
 
YOU SAID:
Don't you think that we ought to obey our Lord and observe communion as He said?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Sure, is there any Scripture that directly identifies an instruction to carry out communion on the exact same day as what they did? If so, then why do the vast majority choose to embrace communion on Sunday rather than Thursday? By the way, as I have said before, what I personally think greatly pales in comparison to what the Word of God says. Therefore, in my world, if my thinking does not parallel what Godâ019s Word says then something needs to be adjusted and it certainly isnâ019t the Word of God in my opinion.
 
YOU SAID:
Enough said. Peace and grace to all believers, walk in the Light and love your brethren in Christ!
 
MY RESPONSE:
Ditto. Except Iâ019d challenge people even more to walk in the light of Christ Himself by following exactly what the Word of God clearly says rather than making any inferences upon it. When you find brethren doing exactly this you can trust that walking within them is relatively safe as long as everyone continues to esteem the Word of God as their guiding light, for that is exactly what it is.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

Lots of questions. I'll start with the easiest one. Yes, Lord's day is in the KJV at Revelation 1:10.
 
The Lord's day wouldn't appear in the OT for there was no point for introducing it, wouldn't you say? I direct your attention to Leviticus 23:15 which speaks about where "pentecost" fell in relation to the Passover. Pentecost fell upon Sunday, first day of the week. This is why we ought to worship Christ on that day. We may decide to rest on the Sabbath, but we ought to worship Him on Sunday. Let's see, Christ arose on the first day of the week, and Pentecost fell upon the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 shows Paul preaching to the believers upon the first day of the week. In I Cor 16:2 Paul is directed to inform the beleivers to lay by him in store upon the first day of the week. Why do it on that day unless the believers gathered together upon that particular day? I see this verse in II Cor 5:17 and wonder how can I look away from applying it to this discussion? "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are passed away; all things are become new." It does say all things. Not just some things.
 
I do not understand why generations come into play in this discussion. Jehovah was plainly speaking to the Jewish nation in Exodus 20:6 and later in Exodus 31 He clearly identifies who He is speaking this all to. Israel is in Jehovah's plans even today, although Judaism was relegated to a pagan religion at His crucifixion.
 
In Rev 12:17 who does the woman represent? What historical period is this speaking about? I need to review this more before giving a more indepth answer.
 
Your point #3 would ultimately put one back under the Law! Is that biblical? James 2:10 would be back into effect and the person would be condemned all over again. How is that related to walking in faith? I cannot see how it would be.
 
The original sabbath was ceremonial in nature for Adam and Eve and their descendents. The "primitive nations" arose out of their offspring.
 
We are not talking about occupations here. We are talking about physical labor of any sort. Jehovah handed down strict commands concerning labor. People's souls are more important than sheep. We are to be about our Father's business and not physically laboring instead on this day. We all still need one day per week of complete rest just as in the beginning. I am not nullifying the sabbath, rather I am pointing out its proper place in our lives as believers. Romans 14:5 hammers home this point of proper place in each of our lives. These things are not to used to judge anyone, our love for each other ought to bring about understanding of how we esteem these things now that we are under grace. Again, in Colossians 2:16-17 we are told to let no man judge us in food, drink, in respect of feast days, new moons, or of a sabbath day since these are a shadow of things to come; but to remember that we are the body of Christ. Even the sabbath was a shadow of something else.
 
A summary:
 
1. The sabbath was the 7th day; the Lord's day is the 1st.
2. The sabbath was a test of Israel's condition; the Lord's day is the proof of the church's acceptance of Christ.
3. the sabath belonged to the old creation; the Lord's day belongs to the new creation.
4. the sabbath day was supposed to be a day of physical rest for the Jew; the Lord's day is a day of spiritual rest in Christ for the believers.
5. If the Jew worked on the sabbath he was put to death; if the Christian does not do spiritual work on the Lord's day he gives little proof of new life in Christ.
 
As to whether or not there is any other purpose to the sabbath day other than to be a perpetual covenant with God and Israel, what proof is there? I know that I am asking a question to answer your question but what evidence do you have?
 
As for you mentioning that Exodus 35 is listing the legalistic machinations of a religious hierarchy, I must disagree on the grounds that Jehovah is the one issueing those restrictions. As for your comment about His original intent being akin to what He did on the original sabbath day, I heartily agree with you and say YES! A day of physical rest from labor. But He did add some restrictions for them to obey.
 
For "custom" I will only say, "Of man?" As for your arguments for implied importance of the sabbath due to avoidance of Him being buried on the sabbath, this merely shows how this custom had infiltrated all aspects of their thinking. No doubt Jesus did not contradict the sabbath in all of these things, you wish to impart more importance upon them than I can read in the verses. He obeyed in all things. Yet He also created new life upon resurrecting from the dead and He very pointedly draws our attention again and again to that fact.
 
The act of setting aside a sum of money on the first day is so that no collection will have to be made when Paul arrives. Granted ambiguity exists here as to exactly when Paul showed up but the first day of the week does show up repeatedly as a day when the believers gathered together. Is this not true?
 
Do not get into the argument of people did not gather for worhip before the time of Jesus. That minimizes the importance of what Jesus came to do. As for evidence that the church(us) is a new creation go look at Galatians 6:15 and again in II Cor 5:17.
 
You ask if you were to "rest" in Christ each day wouldn't you be lazy? I would say not if you were doing what He desires you to be doing each of those days. Isn't a pastor doing such?
 
As we near the end of your post, Why ought we to conclude that worship time should be on Thursdays? When Christ changed the Passover feast into His Last Supper and commanded the disciples to do this in memory of Him did He not lock this ceremony to once per year on a specific day? I think so. All of our major days of commemoration, remembrance fall upon specific days once per year. Communion should only be observed once per year likewise. Liberalism has muddied the waters over the centuries with the assistance of Satan.
 
Peace and grace. May the Spirit have unbridled access to your spirit each and every day!
 
~JEBUS

NOTE: With my current schedule I'm not sure how long I'll be able to maintain these long e-mails but here is my response to your previous post.
 
============================
 
YOU SAID:
Lots of questions. I'll start with the easiest one. Yes, Lord's day is in the KJV at Revelation 1:10.

The Lord's day wouldn't appear in the OT for there was no point for introducing it, wouldn't you say? I direct your attention to Leviticus 23:15 which speaks about where "pentecost" fell in relation to the Passover. Pentecost fell upon Sunday, first day of the week. This is why we ought to worship Christ on that day.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
15 " 'From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks.
Leviticus 23
 
MY RESPONSE:
How does the above verse or any of the verses within Godâ019s Word demonstrate that we should be recognizing Pentecost or the Resurrection Day as opposed to what God has requested from the beginning of creation?
 
YOU SAID:
We may decide to rest on the Sabbath, but we ought to worship Him on Sunday.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Shouldnâ019t we worship God every day of the week? Itâ019s Thursday night here and Iâ019m typing this while listening to gospel music with my bride. It is not merely worship God calls for on the Sabbath. Since it is God who calls for the Sabbath rest in both the new and old testament, who am I to challenge His command?
 
YOU SAID:
Let's see, Christ arose on the first day of the week, and Pentecost fell upon the first day of the week.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Yeah, so? If this was to set a precedence to exempt Godâ019s 10 Commandments in some way wouldnâ019t it have made sense to document such within Godâ019s Holy Word? I donâ019t see any such documentation in the verses I read, which oneâ019s might I be missing?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Acts 20:7
 
YOU SAID:
shows Paul preaching to the believers upon the first day of the week.
 
MY RESPONSE:
While Scripture does indeed say this, the full context of what is being said is missed without including more information.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!" 11Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.
Acts 20
 
MY RESPONSE:
Points of import include:
· â01COn the first day of the weekâ01D
· â01CHe intended to leave the next dayâ01D
· â01CKept on talking until midnightâ01D
· â01CSinking into a deep sleepâ01D
· â01CThen he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate.â01D
· â01CAfter talking until daylightâ01D
 
As you can see this entire passage is critical to the understanding of your single point. Now letâ019s break it down.
 
â01COn the first day of the weekâ01D
Okay, thatâ019s Sunday.
 
â01CHe intended to leave the next dayâ01D
Jewish days were not discussed in the same ways that we discuss days today. There dayâ019s went from sundown to sundown instead of sunrise to sunrise. Given that scope, having a Sabbath day that exists from Friday Sundown to Saturday Sundown makes sense. However, traveling in pitch black was not customary in their day as much of the venturing took place on foot.
 
â01CKept on talking until midnightâ01D
So if the day begins at sunset and Paul was preaching until midnight then this gathering took place at the end of Sabbath rather than Sunday morning. To follow that trend Sunday worshippers should strive to have their main services on Saturday night rather than Sunday morning if this is a precedence to be followed.
 
â01CSinking into a deep sleepâ01D
One could infer that a deep sleep would take place at night time, no? Even if not, the other points of this passage explain the timing quite well.
 
â01CThen he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate.â01D
After bringing this man back to life Paul partook of the food available. This had to be sometime after midnight else Scripture would not remain consistent.
 
NOTE: Since this man died did Paul bring Him back from Heaven to get back into his corpse? The question is not related to this discussion, but it certainly is worthy of being asked.
 
â01CAfter talking until daylightâ01D
Paul went on and on with this talking even after being fed until daylight arrived and then he moved on with his journey. This is yet more solid evidence that the actual time of the gathering was at the close of Sabbath rather than Sunday morning. If we try to put these passages into a Sunday morning time frame they simply lose their cohesion of sense.
 
Many Sabbath events are held at the close of Sabbath within the Adventist movement. These events are called vesperâ019s. That is exactly what took place in these events though the gathering lasted much much longer than most Sabbath or Sunday services would dare to last in todayâ019s current culture.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
I Cor 16:2
 
YOU SAID
In I Cor 16:2 Paul is directed to inform the beleivers to lay by him in store upon the first day of the week. Why do it on that day unless the believers gathered together upon that particular day?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Is there any mention of gathering taking place in this verse? Is there any mention of this gathering being a tithe collection taking place at the exact same time? Could it not be just as easy to see this verse as people putting money aside for a tithe collection as an actual tithe collection taking place? My point here is Scripture is unclear as to whether this is a service taking place or instead preparation for a service to be taking place.
 
GODâ019s WORD
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
II Cor 5:17
 
YOU SAID:
I see this verse in II Cor 5:17 and wonder how can I look away from applying it to this discussion? "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things are passed away; all things are become new." It does say all things. Not just some things.
 
MY RESPONSE:
To take a single verse and position it within a place that it was not intended for is quite dangerous. Iâ019m not necessarily saying this is what you are doing here, but I have seen this in other singular verse that you have brought forward. Though not as dramatic, it would be prudent to read verses before and after this verse in-order to understand the context of what is being spoken of. Can it not be said that many words like â01Cforeverâ01D, â01Callâ01D, & â01Ceternalâ01D could be misrepresented if taken out of context from what the actual verse is trying to say? For example, is the word â01Cforeverâ01D ever used in Scripture in such a way other than meaning that something is actually â01Cforeverâ01D?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
 
MY RESPONSE:
In verse 17 we see the word â01Cthereforeâ01D. To find out the reason that â01Cthereforeâ01D is there we need to look at the preceding verse or verses to determine itâ019s placement. It seems these people regarded people from a â01Cworldly point of viewâ01D at some time in the past; even Christ for that matter. However, because of events that they gone thru they â01Cthereforeâ01D no longer regard people (even Christ) in the way that they used to. Instead they recognize each individual as a new creation in Christ. Their characters have been changed or transformed into something quite different from that which they were before. And this is all because of being reconciled to God thru Christ on the cross. This is what these verses are talking about and nothing else. If their were more than that to read into these verses, surely it would have been written within the verses would it not? Therefore, to take these verses as somehow explaining that we should worship on the Sabbath or the Resurrection day would be a grave error since they themselves allude to no such conversation within the very passage.
 
YOU SAID:
I do not understand why generations come into play in this discussion. Jehovah was plainly speaking to the Jewish nation in Exodus 20:6 and later in Exodus 31 He clearly identifies who He is speaking this all to. Israel is in Jehovah's plans even today, although Judaism was relegated to a pagan religion at His crucifixion.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11
 
MY RESPONSE:
Actually reading Romans 11:11-24 would be good for this discussion. However, I attempted to grab the root of importance in an e-mail that clearly lacks brevity. Yes, Israel is important. Given Romans being a NT book within Godâ019s Word, who is Israel today? This leads to an entirely different conversation where I would submit that our eyes have been cleverly misdirected to things that are not as important as they might appear to be. The author of deception is once again clearly at work.
 
Given that we are Israel today the concept of a 1000 generations applies directly to us. Else God would not have spoken of 1000 generations within the verse as that would be an error upon His part, would it not?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ014those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 12:17
 
YOU SAID:
In Rev 12:17 who does the woman represent? What historical period is this speaking about? I need to review this more before giving a more indepth answer.
 
MY RESPONSE:
With the symbolic concepts in mind please do review this more. When you have answers feel free to come back to this topic. Until such a point as that I will choose not to answer this question, though answering it is indeed critical to the understanding of worship.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
 
YOU SAID:
Your point #3 would ultimately put one back under the Law! Is that biblical? James 2:10 would be back into effect and the person would be condemned all over again. How is that related to walking in faith? I cannot see how it would be.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Again, we are talking about the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the 10 Commandments. Apparently you choose to link these two entities together. A choice that both I and the Word of God would challenge you against doing.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18
 
MY RESPONSE:
Has heaven or earth passed away yet? Clearly they did not pass at the crucifixion of Jesus, else you and I are in a spot of trouble. The Mosaic covenant taught people how to make sacrifices for sins; Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and thus we no longer need kill lambs to atone for our sins as He was the lamb of God who was slain for the world. The 10 Commandments teach us how to live; they have nothing to do with the sacrificial systems which is likely why they took up an entirely different part of Scripture. To link these two entities together is a grave error that leads to much confusion.
 
YOU SAID:
The original sabbath was ceremonial in nature for Adam and Eve and their descendents. The "primitive nations" arose out of their offspring.
 
MY RESPONSE:
How did Cain know that his sacrifice was not acceptable to God? How did Cain know that killing his brother would be wrong? Sure these people did not have a written 10 commandments, but did they not have a spoken one which told them killing was not acceptable? The same God who â01Ccommandedâ01D them not to eat from the tree also spoke to them about how to love God (thru correct worship offerings) and how to love man (by not killing them). Never-the-less, there is no indication within Scripture that Adam and Eve shared the first Sabbath rest with God. While it is likely that they did do exactly this, the focus here is what God is doing rather than what man is supposedly doing. Whatever the case, Adam and Eve were not Jewish any more than you and I are; and we to are descendants from them are we not? As such, if our original fathers kept Sabbath though not Jewish, and God kept Sabbath Himself, how does this prove that we should thus not follow within the footsteps that have been laid out for us?
 
YOU SAID:
We are not talking about occupations here. We are talking about physical labor of any sort. Jehovah handed down strict commands concerning labor. People's souls are more important than sheep. We are to be about our Father's business and not physically laboring instead on this day.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If we are talking about any labor at all and Christ healed a man on the Sabbath. Would that not put Christ Himself in the position of having sinned? This was the point of the Phariseeâ019s and Sadduceeâ019s, is it yours too?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
Matthew 12:12
 
MY RESPONSE:
Christ is not encouraging them to break the Sabbath, but rather teaching them what is acceptable to labor in on the Sabbath. â01CDoing goodâ01D can be â01Cphysical laborâ01D if it is done with the right motives in place. This was the entire point of Christ. He never told them the Sabbath was not important, but rather.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Matthew 12:8
 
YOU SAID:
We all still need one day per week of complete rest just as in the beginning.
 
MY RESPONSE:
How many Sunday keepers go to their jobs after church, or miss church altogether because of their livelihoods? Having once been a Sunday keeper myself I can say the figure is many since taking the full day as a rest day is simply not focused upon within most Sunday churches. Is it?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Romans 14:5
 
YOU SAID:
I am not nullifying the sabbath, rather I am pointing out its proper place in our lives as believers. Romans 14:5 hammers home this point of proper place in each of our lives.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Again, looking at other Scriptures around this Scripture is important. In this case itâ019s the very next verse that we need to include to keep this point in focus. Bare in mind that the entire chapters focus is on eating clean verse unclean food rather than which day to worship. Never-the-less, letâ019s look at the entire point.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Romans 14:5-6
 
MY RESPONSE:
Here we are presented with an equation. Letâ019s break it downâ026
 
A1: One man considers one day more sacred than another
B1: another man considers every day alike
 
EQUALS
 
A2: He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord
B2:
 
OPPS!!!!! The Bible left out the last part of this equation. Shouldnâ019t that mean something to someone somewhere?
 
YOU SAID:
These things are not to used to judge anyone, our love for each other ought to bring about understanding of how we esteem these things now that we are under grace.
 
MY RESPONSE:
While I was once much more â01Cin-your-faceâ01D about my new found understanding of Godâ019s Holy Word, have you ever heard me tell someone they were going to burn because they did not keep the Sabbath? Perhaps you have, it was however not my intention. Being zealous for new found understanding be it Godâ019s Word or an A on a very tough exam can lead to a bit of a need for an attitude adjustment at times. With that in mind I ask for your forgiveness if I have ever stepped beyond the â01Clineâ01D in this context though I donâ019t believe that I have.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17
 
YOU SAID:
Again, in Colossians 2:16-17 we are told to let no man judge us in food, drink, in respect of feast days, new moons, or of a sabbath day since these are a shadow of things to come; but to remember that we are the body of Christ. Even the sabbath was a shadow of something else.
 
ADENDUM WHILE REREADING THIS TO MY BRIDE
Where does the above verse tell us to â01Cremember that we are the body of Christâ01D? I see no words like that given within this verse.
 
MY RESPONSE:
This is the very verse my Sunday pastor used to attempt to dissuade me from studying with Adventists. The question I challenged him and now you with is this. Were there Sabbathâ019s mentioned in Scripture that were separate from the 4th Commandment Sabbath? Above you are referencing the Mosaic Covenant as your position. How is it that in the middle of talking about the Mosaic Covenant you can suddenly be speaking about the 10 Commandments for two words and then jump back to a discussion of the Mosaic covenant? This is most perplexing to me. My pastor had no further response to this query other than I â01Cshouldnâ019t study with seventh day Adventistsâ01D, which hardly provides a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Perhaps you will be able to do better than he?
 
 
 
 
 
YOU SAID:
A summary:

1. The sabbath was the 7th day; the Lord's day is the 1st.
2. The sabbath was a test of Israel's condition; the Lord's day is the proof of the church's acceptance of Christ.
3. the sabath belonged to the old creation; the Lord's day belongs to the new creation.
4. the sabbath day was supposed to be a day of physical rest for the Jew; the Lord's day is a day of spiritual rest in Christ for the believers.
5. If the Jew worked on the sabbath he was put to death; if the Christian does not do spiritual work on the Lord's day he gives little proof of new life in Christ.
 
MY RESPONSE:
And you gain all this understanding from a single verse in Revelation? Thatâ019s putting a huge amount of power into one verse, as I see no where else in Scripture that the Lordâ019s Day is spoken of. Godâ019s Word has so much emphasis on the Sabbath and so little emphasis on the Lordâ019s Day and yet somehow the Lordâ019s Day supercedes the Sabbath?
 
YOU SAID:
As to whether or not there is any other purpose to the sabbath day other than to be a perpetual covenant with God and Israel, what proof is there? I know that I am asking a question to answer your question but what evidence do you have?
 
MY RESPONSE:
You mean besides the fact that God instituted the Sabbath on the first week of creation, Christ followed the Sabbath in His life and especially within His death, the custom of both Christ and His followers was to keep the Sabbath, the Sabbath is spoken of repeatedly within both NT and OT scriptures, Christ Himself told us to follow His Fatherâ019s commands, and Lucifer wages war throughout all time with those who have the testimony of Jesus and obey His Commandments? Well, other than that Iâ019d say none. However, for me and my house that is quite enough. Though if honesty were to be spoken there is far more evidence than even the points mentioned above. Are you aware that the book of Acts alone mentions the Sabbath over 40 times? You can trust that the mentions do not include a position that we are no longer to keep the Sabbath.
 
MY BRIDE:
She would like to know what you know of people like the Waldenseeâ019s and others that were persecuted for keeping the Sabbath?
 
YOU SAID:
As for you mentioning that Exodus 35 is listing the legalistic machinations of a religious hierarchy, I must disagree on the grounds that Jehovah is the one issueing those restrictions.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Iâ019m not following this point, but there are vast others which we can continue discussing.
 
YOU SAID:
As for your comment about His original intent being akin to what He did on the original sabbath day, I heartily agree with you and say YES! A day of physical rest from labor. But He did add some restrictions for them to obey.
 
MY RESPONSE:
No doubt. Youâ019ve used the words â01Ca day of physical rest from laborâ01D more than once in your writings. Or words like them. Which passage of Scripture are you pulling this type of phrase from or are you conjecturing upon what you want Scripture to be saying here?
 
YOU SAID:
For "custom" I will only say, "Of man?"
 
MY RESPONSE:
Sure, Christ was a man and it was His custom to keep the Sabbath. Your point?
 
YOU SAID:
As for your arguments for implied importance of the sabbath due to avoidance of Him being buried on the sabbath, this merely shows how this custom had infiltrated all aspects of their thinking. No doubt Jesus did not contradict the sabbath in all of these things, you wish to impart more importance upon them than I can read in the verses.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If you take time to do some historical research you will find that it was not customary to crucify someone on Good Friday or any other Friday due to the whole Sabbath ritual thing you mention. Yet this is indeed what happened to Christ, and then everyone was shocked that He died so quickly which is why His legs were not broken in fulfillment of Scripture. However, it was not just the â01Creligious rulersâ01D who were concerned about those being crucified being on the crosses on the Sabbath, but rather it was the followers of Christ Himself. Never-the-less, who was responsible for the exact day that Jesus came out of the tomb? Iâ019m pretty sure it wasnâ019t the â01Creligious rulersâ01D or His followers but God along thru the events that encompassed His Son our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
YOU SAID:
He obeyed in all things. Yet He also created new life upon resurrecting from the dead and He very pointedly draws our attention again and again to that fact.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Sure, itâ019s called the resurrection. And just to think it took Him 3 days to do what we seem to be able to do in a second. What was His problem, or is it perhaps a misunderstanding of Scripture on our part?
 
YOU SAID:
The act of setting aside a sum of money on the first day is so that no collection will have to be made when Paul arrives. Granted ambiguity exists here as to exactly when Paul showed up but the first day of the week does show up repeatedly as a day when the believers gathered together. Is this not true?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Iâ019m not sure that this is true. Which verses do you wish to call forward to prove this point?
 
YOU SAID:
Do not get into the argument of people did not gather for worhip before the time of Jesus. That minimizes the importance of what Jesus came to do. As for evidence that the church(us) is a new creation go look at Galatians 6:15 and again in II Cor 5:17.
 
MY RESPONSE:
I would not have approached the discussion if it were not for a point your previous post attempted to make. I am fine with letting this point go if you are.
 
YOU SAID:
You ask if you were to "rest" in Christ each day wouldn't you be lazy? I would say not if you were doing what He desires you to be doing each of those days. Isn't a pastor doing such?
 
MY RESPONSE:
Agreed. So then the question is how does Christ specifically ask us to rest? One way of answering that is to observe how He rested on the Sabbath.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Exodus 20

MY RESPONSE:
Do you ever find an occurrence of Jesus breaking this Commandment during His Sabbath rest?
 
YOU SAID:
As we near tche end of your post, Why ought we to conclude that worship time should be on Thursdays?
 
MY RESPONSE:
It was your writing that asked if we shouldnâ019t follow what they did then. Following what they did then would include doing so on the same day would it not?
 
YOU SAID:
When Christ changed the Passover feast into His Last Supper
 
MY RESPONSE:
Which Scripture directly specifically declares that the two events are correlated rather than these two events being separate entities unto themselves?
 
YOU SAID:
and commanded the disciples to do this in memory of Him
 
GODâ019s WORD:
-- Actual --
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
Luke 22
 
-- Reflected Upon --
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
 
MY RESPONSE:
I see no where within the â01Cactual eventâ01D or the â01Creflected uponâ01D event that indicates we are only to recognize this at a given time of the year. What am I missing? But if it is meant to be performed at a given time of the year, shouldnâ019t we also recognize the exact day that it was served and that being Thursday night not Sunday morning? Never-the-less, I am a bit at a loss as to how this relates to the topic at hand.
 
YOU SAID:
did He not lock this ceremony to once per year on a specific day? I think so.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If that is how you read it then why have you changed the day? Or do you indeed take communion on Thursday night once a year within your following? The lock to me is not so clear, as I do not see Scripture stating this in any fashion.
 
YOU SAID:
All of our major days of commemoration, remembrance fall upon specific days once per year. Communion should only be observed once per year likewise. Liberalism has muddied the waters over the centuries with the assistance of Satan.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Hasnâ019t one of your strongest positions against the Sabbath been that we are no longer under the ceremonial laws. Wouldnâ019t this be putting people under those self-same ceremonial laws? Which is it? Whatever the case, as it relates to communion I read Scripture that says â01Cfor as oft as you do itâ01D rather than this must be done on such and such a day. Further, Iâ019m not completely sure how this string exemplifies or nullifies the concept of keeping the Sabbath.

YOU SAID:
Peace and grace. May the Spirit have unbridled access to your spirit each and every day!
 
MY RESPONSE:
To you as well within the embrace of the Holy Spirit sent to us by Jesus Himself my friend.

These posts are certainly getting longer and longer! However, I want to respond right now to two items that you mentioned. I am not skipping out on the others, time is a limitation right now. In Col 2:16-17 I was a bit "loose" by adding in "we ought to remember that we are the body of Christ." The 17th verse does say Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The body is the church which means it is us. We need to remem ber that fact.
From what verses do you garner an understanding that we are 'Israel" today? At what point in scripture does that differentiation take place? This begins to sound alot like the Jehovah Witnesses position so that they can decide who the 144,000 will be to enter into heaven. Scripture does not support this interpretation.
A third point before I close for now. The verses in Colossians 2 mention sabbaths, the Sabbath is not singled out for exemption as you feel. In relation to this I would ask you to reread scripture that talks about all that God handed down from the mount. You refer to the ordinances as the Mosaic covenant and seem to be equalizing that with the Law. The Ten commandments along with the ordinances is the Mosaic covenant as I read that whole section of the bible. They cannot be separated one from another.
I am still poring through the rest of what you posted... :)
 
~JEBUS

Hey Jebus
 
YOU SAID
These posts are certainly getting longer and longer! However, I want to respond right now to two items that you mentioned. I am not skipping out on the others, time is a limitation right now.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Amen, and to that end Iâ019m going to attempt to get both responses to you today.
 
YOU SAID:
In Col 2:16-17 I was a bit "loose" by adding in "we ought to remember that we are the body of Christ." The 17th verse does say Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The body is the church which means it is us. We need to remember that fact.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Just as Jonah was a â01Cshadowâ01D or â01Ctypeâ01D of Christ, I would agree.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
Luke 11:30
For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.
 
MY RESPONSE:
However, while remembering such things we also need to be sure we are not using such concepts incorrectly in an attempt to satisfy our own needs or desires. Yet this whole shadow idea does bring up an interesting question.
 
Baptism is a â01Cshadowâ01D or â01Ctypeâ01D of death.
 
GODâ019s WORD:
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
 
MY RESPONSE:
So which part of baptism represents the â01Csoulâ01D of a person leaving the body upon death and going to Heaven? If baptism is a â01Cshadowâ01D of what is to come, then shouldnâ019t it include the concept of what is indeed to come?
 
GODâ019s WORD:
John 5:28-29
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ014those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Since this hasnâ019t happened yet, it would seem that this is a future tense verse to me. What do you think? Further, what would be the difference between the words â01Crise to liveâ01D and â01Crise to be condemnedâ01D?
 
YOU SAID:
From what verses do you garner an understanding that we are 'Israel" today? At what point in scripture does that differentiation take place? This begins to sound alot like the Jehovah Witnesses position so that they can decide who the 144,000 will be to enter into heaven. Scripture does not support this interpretation.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Nor did I say it did. Please donâ019t attempt to make me say things which I have not in any way supported. However, who is Paul speaking about in Romans 11? I could paste the entire chapter here or you could reference it from http://biblegateway.com or whatever source you prefer. The question remains, who are the natural branches and who are those that are grafted in?
 
YOU SAID:
A third point before I close for now. The verses in Colossians 2 mention sabbaths, the Sabbath is not singled out for exemption as you feel.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Nor did I say it was. However, there are all sorts of Sabbaths spoken of in Scripture (ie yearly Sabbaths). Even the ground is to experience a yearly Sabbath once every seven years. These Sabbaths have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath of rest in the Lord. What is being spoken of in Col 2 are not the weekly Sabbaths. Even so, it would be wrong for me to say something likeâ026.
 
â01CYou are going to hell because you donâ019t keep the Sabbathâ01D
 
That is not for me to say. All I can do is point to the truths of Godâ019s Word and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
 
In relation to this I would ask you to reread scripture that talks about all that God handed down from the mount.
 
YOU SAID:
You refer to the ordinances as the Mosaic covenant and seem to be equalizing that with the Law.
 
MY RESPONSE:
Absolutely not. However, it does appear that looping them as one is something you are set on doing. They are distinctly different as I would have shown you in the Sanctuary if I had stayed with that conversation long enough. Consider their placement with the ark. Why is the Mosaic covenant kept in a pouch on the side of the ark while the 10 commandments are placed in the center of the ark? Everything within the sanctuary had itâ019s purpose for being exactly where it was as did both of these documents. Another question to ask is why was the Mosaic covenant written on parchment paper that could easily be destroyed while the 10 Commandments was written in stone?
 
King Darius wanted to free Daniel from the lionâ019s den. So much more than one sentence to expound upon here. However, why was he unable to free Daniel from being thrown into the lionâ019s den? This directly relates to the above.
 
 
YOU SAID:
The Ten commandments along with the ordinances is the Mosaic covenant as I read that whole section of the bible. They cannot be separated one from another.
 
MY RESPONSE:
If this is the case, it would seem that their would be some Scriptural position tying the two together. Iâ019ve shown several scriptural positions that show they are completely separate (ie parchment & placement). Where do you read that these two documents are to be taken as a whole unit? The US Constitution and Declaration of Independence are two documents that while used together are completely separate entities are they not? Similarly, is the case of the Mosaic Covenant and the 10 Commandments, unless you can demonstrate direct Scripture that teaches otherwise.
 
YOU SAID:
I am still poring through the rest of what you posted... :)
 
MY RESPONSE:
Good conversations, to be sure. I truly do appreciate your heart in these posts.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

In Exodus 34-35 Jehovah hands down what/how He wants the Israelites to do things. The ordinances as they are called, I suppose. The commandments are in there also. I looked at Exodus 40 where Moses erected the Tabernacle for the very first time and can find no mention of a pouch being placed on the outside of the ark. The testimony was placed inside the ark, true, but what constituted the testimony? I maintain the ordinances are part of it since the Law is useless unless there is provided a way to satisfy the Law. And that is what the Tabernacle was all about. But this digresses back to the postings about the Tabernacle.
To your point about scripoture to support my premise that God intends Sabbath day to be physical rest; Genesis 2:2. God was finished with all of His creation labors and it says what?
I do not want to discuss your point of conjecture concerning "Israel" equating to the church today. It does not apply to what is being discussed now, we digress too much on both sides as it is. I go to review Romans 11.
 
Peace and grace,
~JEBUS

Deuteronomy 31:26
"Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
 
Cheers
IBIJ

You lost me with this reply. Deut 31:26 does not mention any pouch being placed on the outside of the ark. Where is this written in scripture?
 
~JEBUS

What is the Mosaic Covenant if not the "Book Of the Law" -- Notice it's placement? While it is with the ark it certainly is not inside of the Ark.
 
Cheers
IBIJ
 
PS: Hey, how about that, a two line reply. LOL

Slowly but surely I will cover your questions. Tell your wife that I am aware of the Waldensee group as well as the Anabaptists, Pietists, and the Church of the Brethren. All were victimized by the "regular" churches for breaking ranks and worshipping as closely to the NT as possible. The harassment came due to their views of proper baptism as much as for anything else they believed.
Your Levitcus 23:15 quote is incorrect, "weeks" is actually "days"; this verse counts off how many days of sabbaths they were to observe. Whether to interpret this to mean seven weeks or seven days in a row for this observance is open to question. This is all in relation to when Pentecost occurred. I still maintain it fell on Sunday.
Your point concerning II Cor 5:17 is the same as I put forward about your claim that Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. Just as dangerous if we think about it. I retract mine as it is not necessary to my argument. What about yours? Or your other past claim that Jesus is reviewing our records in the Sanctuary and when done then He will return for us. That is another interpretation that is dangerous and ought not to be publically bandied about.
Getting back to your stance in regards to the Law. The ten commandments are actually mentioned in Ex 34:28 when God tells Moses He is giving him the covenant. the ten commandments. Is that not the Law? Covenat, ten commandments. Seems to be linked together. So if the Law/oovenant was in the Ark and Christ came and fulfilled the Law, that means that we are no longer under the ten commandments because we are now under the law of grace in Jeus Christ. True? Can you supply me with verses that say that specifically something else is the Law? I have stated that the Tabernacle ordinances are inextricably intermeshed with the Law, one cannot exist without the other. To have Law but have no way to satisfy it is illogical. To have a system of ceremonial rites to follow without any reason to do so is illogical.
What is the point to asking how many Sunday goers go to work after their worship service? In our present day culture how many of the Adventists never go to work on Saturdays? None of them have occupations that require occasional work on Saturday? Does this mean that if a person whose occupation requires him to labor Thursday through Sunday on 10 hour shifts can never become an Adventist, or a born again believer? Why? Christ never made that restriction for anyone. Come as you are. This whole question is moot.
Romans 14 directly speaks about food and drink but it also throws in statements about not putting any stumblingblocks in the way of our brethren. Emphasis upon verses 17-19 should be the order of this day.
I do not think that I was reverting back to relying upon ceremonial laws within the Bible when I gave present day examples of how we annually observe memorial events that have happened to us. The Passover was a ceremonial event annually carried out by the Jewish nation/people. I find it hard to expand upon Christ saying "as often as you do this" to take an annual event and make a firm argument for having to do it weekly, monthly, quarterly, etc.. No, my current fellowship group do not limit communion to a specific Thursday annually, they do observe communion at that time but they also leave it optional to do it at other times throughout the year. Is there any known church that only observes communion on Passover? If so, my hat goes off to them!
My summary about the Sabbath and the Lord's Day was not drawn from one verse in Revelation, I never indicated such in my post. Merely drawing up a summary of thoughts up to that point. My apologie if you were mislead by my wording or lack thereof. I never have relegated the sabbath to second place my friend. I merely continue to emphasize that a fundamental change happened with Christ manifested in the flesh. He came and Tabernacled with us in the flesh. Previously He commanded His nation Israel to do no work at all on the sabbath while He Tabernacled with them in the tent of the congregation or later in Solomon's Temple. When here in the flesh He told everyone a slightly altered commandment, because He was soon to fulfill the Law? He could alter the commandments to be differently worded since He is/was the Lord of the Sabbath. Israel was His living, breathing example to the entire world around them of His existence, His power and might, and of His love and protection of His chosen people. Those "people" were a national group, not individuals from every corner of the world who have come to God.
 
Peace, and patience, love and grace, may they abound in each of our lives daily.
 
~JEBUS